tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post7483010754954304579..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: There is no "opinion crime"!Gevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-46718608180075309212010-12-06T09:09:33.425+01:002010-12-06T09:09:33.425+01:00This article really rang true for me and helped me...This article really rang true for me and helped me better define my ideas. Great post, great insight.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-84010779399977447232010-12-02T14:04:18.796+01:002010-12-02T14:04:18.796+01:00"victim" "crime" .. do you eve..."victim" "crime" .. do you even listen to yourselves? There is absolutely no need to deal with "bullying" if one can ignore it without suffering adverse consequences. <br /><br />The person complaining about the gearscore might still not be a good fit for the guild, though, if he genuinely believes what he said to K.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-44142348847580551862010-12-01T12:45:57.398+01:002010-12-01T12:45:57.398+01:00It sounds to me as if you are just to lazy to deal...It sounds to me as if you are just to lazy to deal with the fact that somebody got bullied. A guild that does not handle that kind of problems will be affected by the same issues that a company has that ignores mobbing.<br /><br />It sounds like a pretty silly attempt to blame the victim for the crime. I had to deal with a situation like that after last raid, it wasn't very pleasant but that is what you do. If you are in charge, you need the balls to speak up if things go the wrong way.Cloeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02980987687450024409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-86232590563530912032010-11-30T16:01:06.948+01:002010-11-30T16:01:06.948+01:00@Gevlon
It is my opinion that there could be a co...@Gevlon<br /><br />It is my opinion that there could be a compromise between your concept of multiple co-existing brands, with no interaction and my idea of a wider all encompassing brand.<br /><br />You used WoW reputations as an example, well if we look at the example of Horde Expedition/Alliance Vanguard, composed of different reputations that affect the overall whole. Contrived I admit, but you could draw comparisons to real life.<br /><br />I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering, I initially worked as Machinery Engineer (so directly using Mech Eng), and as long as I worked well, improving my reputation as a Mechanical Engineer. My next role was a Project Engineer (drawing on my engineering knowledge but no specific Mechanical Engineering work), yet as I improved myself as an Project Engineer my reputation as a Mechanical Engineer would still improve. Now it would be easy to rip apart my example by pointing out how different disciplines within engineering are merely different flavors, however I think it still stands as a reasonable example.<br /><br />So let’s look at your example<br /><br />“If I write a scientific article, I increase my reputation in academic circles but have no effect on the blue-collars or even with the family.”<br /><br />Let’s assume you write good scientific articles, and each improves your brand as an academic. Now if one of your articles was rubbished, even if the person rubbishing it did it on the basis of false logic or incomplete information and that information got back to the “blue-collars” or your family it would change their view of you. The change may be insignificant in size but it would still be affecting your brand, to write in extremes, you would move from “that person who writes clever stuff that I am neither able or willing to understand” to “that person who attempts to write clever stuff but probably doesn’t understand it himself”. Now the fact that these people may care more about the parts of your brand that describe you as a person rather than as a scientist is irrelevant your brand has changed.<br /><br />Now let’s bring this back to your original post. “There is no “opinion crime”” In describing K’s story he may have detracted from his own brand. However, even working with the best of intentions the raid leader detracted from K’s brand by labeling him as a sponger, if being a sponger is not K’s intention (which is a fair assumption) then he has a detracted from K’s brand. And to say “there is no opinion crime” is to cast to make too sweeping a statement. Remember that the definition of crime is not based on personal opinion it is instead the opinion of society or a group within society.dangphatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-24493792517011360902010-11-30T14:58:07.478+01:002010-11-30T14:58:07.478+01:00Gevlon:
I understand that is how *you* feel.
But...Gevlon:<br /><br />I understand that is how *you* feel.<br /><br />But the whole point of your blog (or part of it) is that there are tons of M&S.<br /><br />Tons of M&S having a bad opinion of you can have negative consequences. I agree no opinion crime happened in K's case -- but opinion crime can happen and have negative consequences.<br /><br />An example of opinion mattering (not crime) is the people who boycotted British Petroleum in USA after the oil spill. Imagine if the oil spill was all lies and still this happened.Libel Slandernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-82275505150005460462010-11-30T12:08:40.704+01:002010-11-30T12:08:40.704+01:00@Dangphat: I don't believe that we have ONE un...@Dangphat: I don't believe that we have ONE universal reputation. Funny but WoW's reputation system is more realistic than this "brand" view. There are several groups and we have different standing with them. If I write a scientific article, I increase my reputation in academic circles but have no effect on the blue-collars or even with the family. Typical example is the female relative who asks from the young female upon hearing that she was promoted to department head: "it's all very nice but when will you have babies?". For the "old-fashioned relatives" group, being department head is irrelevant.<br /><br />These groups usually mutually contempt each other and the opinion of one group is is ignored by the other (if the right-wing republicans call me a "baby-killing America-hater", the liberals will just laugh or translate it to "pro-choice, anti-Quantamo guy".<br /><br />The falsehood emerging in a group is limited to its borders. In relevant groups you have all the options to fight these lies. For example in the blogging community I can voice my opinion (by blogging) gaining followers despite others constantly try to bully me out. It is quite probable that they completely blackened me in their circles and their friends don't read my blog. So what? There are enough fish left in the pond for me.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-34952748023122604162010-11-30T11:46:00.032+01:002010-11-30T11:46:00.032+01:00@Gevlon
“I don't question the value of reputat...@Gevlon<br />“I don't question the value of reputation. I simply don't believe it can be harmed by some liar. Or alternatively if some liar can change some people's mind, he actually just saved me from those morons.”<br /><br />This response didn’t work for me logically, so I am trying to work through the reasoning in the hope of either educating myself or adding to this debate.<br /><br />To rewrite your comment: “Reputation has value, which cannot be affected by falsehood, however if this is not true then my basis for measuring reputation is wrong”<br /><br />Our reputation is interlinked with our personal brand. We cannot decide on what our brand is directly, we can only carry out actions that then influence other people’s opinion of what our brand is. In-between carrying out the action and them forming an opinion there will be multiple mechanisms of information transfer one of which will often be word-of-mouth. If the information the person receives is errant then they will have to compare the information against what they know of your brand already, they will then make a decision on its likelihood. <br /><br />At that point, while considering the validity of the information they receive, they will forever connect your brand with that falsehood, even if they know it is a falsehood. Now this thought process does not just happen with “morons” it happens with everyone, including our friends and family.<br /><br />So in essence my point is that falsehoods, however obvious, will damage people’s image of you.dangphatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-18174999896389064122010-11-30T07:50:02.988+01:002010-11-30T07:50:02.988+01:00@Symbolsix: this is getting very offtopic so I do ...@Symbolsix: this is getting very offtopic so I do not wish to continue this on this comment section. But a short answer: yes, I do think pain without injury is harmless and the perfect example is the dentist. He inflicts pain without injury (actually with the opposite: healing) and stupid people afraid of him. On the other hand they drink and smoke because it does not inflict pain despite harming.<br /><br />@Libel Slander: the point is that I don't CARE if someone is a ninja, gold farmer or hacker. His auctions are just as good as anyone elses. I do not do face-to-face trading exactly because I don't want to be associated with them, but the AH is fair game.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-81954002558726107572010-11-30T07:10:12.427+01:002010-11-30T07:10:12.427+01:00Replace "dishonest" with ninja, or gold ...Replace "dishonest" with ninja, or gold farmer, or hacker, or whatever other accusation that is easy to prove, easy to believe, and hard to disprove.Libel Slandernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-8848019347513480252010-11-30T06:53:16.716+01:002010-11-30T06:53:16.716+01:00"I don't question the existence of psycho..."I don't question the existence of psychological pain, I just claim it to be a disorder."<br /><br />Would you claim the same of the distress felt at being physically touched but not injured (someone spitting on you, for example)? If you say that the only bad thing about getting spat on is that you have to wipe a bit of fluid off your face, I guess that's a value judgment you're entitled to, but I suspect it's an exceedingly rare one. <br /><br /><br />What about being tortured painfully, but with no lingering affects? Suppose someone simply tazed you in the street, and you were able to immediately get up and go about your business, so it only costs you the few seconds during which you were being electrocuted.<br /><br />If what Kronojuice claims is true, and "psychological pain, caused by words and emotions, and physical pain, caused by pointy sticks and fire, activate the same areas of the brain," then regarding the physical pain of being tazed and the psychological pain of being libeled (forget the possible other effects of libel) are fundamentally *the same pain* not just in people with disorders, but in the healthy human adult.<br /><br />To put it another way, why do you privilege physical pain?Symbolsixnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-55464870578199998052010-11-30T06:16:43.619+01:002010-11-30T06:16:43.619+01:00@Anonymous: if you call people "nigger",...@Anonymous: if you call people "nigger", you just make everyone sure that you are a capital case moron. And no, the black people should not be offended, they should pity you.<br /><br />@Kronojuice: I don't question the existence of psychological pain, I just claim it to be a disorder. Similarly, the claustrophobic guy may get the hearth rate of 170 in an elevator and faint, yet no one suggest we should ban elevators, the proper action is to treat him.<br /><br />@Lamna nasus: you missed the first post http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2010/11/misery-of-k.html. It says that the rule was not enforced due to his fault as he failed to report it. I can't stop what I can't see.<br /><br />@Luro: there was no drama, he left silently at 2 AM. I'm making "drama" here, trying to understand and discuss a social issue (that's what I do on this blog)<br /><br />@Libel Slander: 3/4 of the server can't be that stupid to not know that no one is "dishonest auctioneer" as you can't ninja the AH interface, so even if I'm the worse person ever, it's safe to buy from me in the AHGevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-30010369437447410932010-11-30T04:47:37.564+01:002010-11-30T04:47:37.564+01:00Usaki and others are right. There certainly are o...Usaki and others are right. There certainly are opinion crimes. In some places they are called libel and slander.<br /><br />However, there are no "private" opinion crimes. K was not hurt by these people messaging him privately, especially when he had the easy recourse available.<br /><br />Consider two scenarios:<br /><br />1) Random idiot from respected server guild messages Gevlon and says he is a dishonest auctioneer and will never buy from him again and in fact installed an addon so he ignores Gevlon's auctions: Gevlon is hurt very minimally, if at all, by this idiot.<br /><br />2) Random idiot from respected server guild messages Gevlon and says he is a dishonest auctioneer and will never buy from him again and in fact installed an addon so he ignores Gevlon's auctions. He gets his friends to do this too, and gets them all to spam general chat with this message, and get 3/4 the server to install this addon blocking Gevlon.<br /><br />Gevlon is hurt pretty significantly by this.<br /><br />K's situation is more analogous to hypothetical 1 than hypothetical 2, but situations like hypothetical 2 can come to pass, in game and out. A more realistic situation like hypothetical 2 is the one advanced by chewy.Libel Slandernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-38600516744827498572010-11-30T02:13:38.775+01:002010-11-30T02:13:38.775+01:00'Actually he is right to abuse your mental def...'Actually he is right to abuse your mental deficiency to get gain. The guy who whined about low GS got one less competitor for gear bids, good for him! '<br /><br />.. therein lies the problem.. I may have misread your blog concerning your guild rules regarding GS bigots.. however this appears to completely contradict them.. yes K was too thin skinned.. however your rules clearly did not prevent between 1 and three members of the raid having a pop about GS.. despite the raid being aimed at getting better gear.. so logically your rules mean diddly.. since you actually state the GS bigot was in the right.. K may be too thin skinned but he was right to leave a guild which has rules that can be flouted whenever someone feels they may gain a benefit.. since the GS rules are therefore meaningless... just my two cents...Lamna nasushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13352306458550907103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-34186546657061158532010-11-30T01:15:05.213+01:002010-11-30T01:15:05.213+01:00Being wrongly accused of rape does't stop you ...Being wrongly accused of rape does't stop you from bringing forth legal action against people that break the law.<br /><br />Also, if my friend is no longer my friend even after I was proven innocent, was he ever really my friend?Kuckucknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-65840006460034403462010-11-29T23:52:01.319+01:002010-11-29T23:52:01.319+01:00There is research indicating that psychological pa...There is research indicating that psychological pain, caused by words and emotions, and physical pain, caused by pointy sticks and fire, activate the same areas of the brain:<br />http://www.sutherlandsurvey.com/Column_pages/emotion_as_pain.html#1<br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9252330<br /><br />This means saying "If you are insulted/hurt/forced by mere words, you have problems, and not the guy telling them.", is equivalent of saying "If you are hurt by mere broken bones, you have problems, and not the guy punching you"<br /><br />Now, everyone has a different pain tolerance, and just as we wouldn't tolerate an adult who breaks into tears from a paper cut, we can say that K was probably too sensitive to criticism here.<br /><br />However, in this post you completely dismiss psychological pain, and imply that it isn't immoral to use words to hurt someone's feelings, since your psychological pain tolerance is so high that words don't affect you at all.<br /><br />Imagine someone who has no physical feeling in their skin, or someone like a professional boxer with a high pain tolerance, claiming that it should be okay to go around punching people because it's their own fault if they feel hurt.<br /><br />Obviously, we must cater to the regular people in the population, not the incredibly tolerant nor the incredibly intolerant, and the vast majority of humanity feels real emotional pain in reaction to words.KhronoJuicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816257948194493015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-86083694375427095772010-11-29T21:29:18.412+01:002010-11-29T21:29:18.412+01:00Am I going to be the only one to point out we are ...Am I going to be the only one to point out we are discussing a social issue (2 posts in a row) in a supposedly asocial guild with no drama (which this obviously is).luronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-78019661974275870482010-11-29T21:27:16.117+01:002010-11-29T21:27:16.117+01:00It's funny because by this mentality i should ...It's funny because by this mentality i should be able to call a black person a "nigger" whenever i want and if they take it the wrong way that's their problem.<br />Since I'm not physically hurting them, i can call them whatever I want. It's upto them to get offended or not....<br />Did i get your message correctly?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-6496002970383936342010-11-29T20:25:49.872+01:002010-11-29T20:25:49.872+01:00@Ulsaki
I hope this isn't going to drag this ...@Ulsaki<br /><br /><i>I hope this isn't going to drag this off-topic, but a dramatic example would be a man falsely being accused of rape.</i><br /><br />An excellent point.<br /><br />It has been known for groups to falsely accuse people of paedophilia in order to discredit them and have them victimised by their immediate society (neighbours, work mates etc).<br /><br />Gevlon, you too glibly dismiss the potential impact of words without considering all the implications.chewynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-47757942165564547622010-11-29T18:18:37.276+01:002010-11-29T18:18:37.276+01:00I would dissagree that, as a general rule there is...I would dissagree that, as a general rule there is no opinion crime.<br />Opinions DO matter. After all, the persons in the guild are the same. If you tell them to "stop being morons" they WILL hold a grundge on you.<br /><br />In any case, compromise is the best solution. But, as I was too there, I have to say that mister K had a point. They told him he was a reliability.<br /><br />Being a reliability, social or antisocial, is NOT good. That's a propable reason why he left. At least I refuse to participate until I feel I am at the very least pulling my weight (having gold =/= downing a boss).<br /><br /><br />ps: Gotta love the new banner<br /><br />ps2: a funny thing. I have more than 20 people give me 50g EACH to make the portals from Dalaran to X city for the first 2 days of Cata. I thought of keeping screenshots but then I didn't because I thought you would have too many of those already for the morons of the day....<br />I guess we all thought the same?energybombnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-51766203375447455502010-11-29T17:41:57.923+01:002010-11-29T17:41:57.923+01:00@Gevlon
"I don't question the value of r...@Gevlon<br /><br /><i>"I don't question the value of reputation. I simply don't believe it can be harmed by some liar. Or alternatively if some liar can change some people's mind, he actually just saved me from those morons."</i><br /><br />I hope this isn't going to drag this off-topic, but a dramatic example would be a man falsely being accused of rape.<br /><br />Because this is a very difficult crime to prove someone guilty of (or innocent), and because it's generally believed that false accusations are rare, the stigma from such an accusation can be devastating. There are cases out there where people have lost their jobs, even custody of their children, all over a claim with no evidence behind it, and which has later been admitted to be false.<br /><br />These aren't things you can shrug your shoulders at and say "well, the people who believe those claims are morons". That may be true, but the real world effects still persist.<br /><br />A hypothetical WoW example. Let's say several people on your server accuse you of being a ninja looter.<br /><br />There'll be some people who immediately accept this, because they're gullible and stupid.<br /><br />But, there will also be intelligent people who will consider the probabilities, and therefore consider you a higher risk than someone else, simply because someone accused of ninja looting is more likely to be a ninja looter than someone who is not being accused. Because of this, it's less risky for them to find another group.<br /><br />We don't have the time or the desire to validate every claim out there, so we all have to make risk assessments.<br /><br />In short, false claims can still damage your reputation, and they can have an impact on intelligent rational people.Ulsakinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-71557022257599032452010-11-29T17:32:23.231+01:002010-11-29T17:32:23.231+01:00Gevlon, it seems to me that K did the right thing:...Gevlon, it seems to me that K did the right thing: on discovering that The PuG (or at least his sample of it) was 1/3 morons who ignored the guild rules, and that the GM did not punish those disobeying the rules, he simply chose to find a guild with fewer morons, and not waste his time further with The PuG.Dàchénghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994982502333811797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-91126030743061274432010-11-29T17:31:45.778+01:002010-11-29T17:31:45.778+01:00@Anonymous:
Wow, it didn't take long for Godw...@Anonymous:<br /><br />Wow, it didn't take long for Godwin's Law to kick in!<br /><br />I think we need to take a look at exactly a guild leader's duty is. In my opinion, if a guild has a very specific set of rules, these rules need to be policed. However, a guild leader shouldn't be an investigator, who feverishly uses all his energy on trying to unearth evidence on "crimes" committed. The very basis of PuG is to have a basis for players to raid without putting up with the following: Incessant spamming, guild drama, months of farming instances and underachieving M&S. PuG is heaven for people who <br /><br />1) have a very limited time on their hands to raid; they will be accepted without having the state-of-the-art gear (aka no GS), <br /><br />2) want to play in an environment without the strict commitment of carrying M&S through raids and the "social" commitment of boosting and crafting,<br /><br />3) want to keep spam levels to a low, not only due to irritation, but mostly to keep "real" information available.<br /><br />This is the idea (at least that's what I get from Gevlon's posts) of the PuG. What it doesn't want is to care and nurture everyone. Obviously, if a raid leader kicked someone due to low gear, it would go against the rules. But a random whisper? Not so much. We don't even know what was said. For example: "Wow, your gear is really crappy" is to me stating the obvious, as it probably is true. I don't see any harrasment there. However, a "your gear is too crappy, gtfo, or I won't heal you" is truly too much. But again, no screenshots were taken, so nobody knows. And also, whining to someone, who isn't Gevlon also won't bring "justice". In short, while I don't play in PuG, I think K made the right decision to quit the guild. Obviously he wasn't the right material to play there.Mcmokkanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-33564209670267312622010-11-29T16:08:41.663+01:002010-11-29T16:08:41.663+01:00@Ulsaki: I don't question the value of reputat...@Ulsaki: I don't question the value of reputation. I simply don't believe it can be harmed by some liar. Or alternatively if some liar can change some people's mind, he actually just saved me from those morons.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-43780642477640549302010-11-29T15:28:00.253+01:002010-11-29T15:28:00.253+01:00@gevlon
"I believe libel laws will be mentio...@gevlon<br /><br />"I believe libel laws will be mentioned 100 years from now as we talk about witch-trials."<br /><br />Reputation will always have value. Sometimes reputation can be useless "HAY YOUR COOL", but it can also be valuable. For example, having a reputation as a skilled raid leader makes it easier for you to form groups in future, saving you time.<br /><br />Unfortunately there will always be some who make up false claims. Either to try and discredit someone, or because of a mental illness, or whatever. Either way, there will most likely still be a need for libel laws in the future.Ulsakinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-226307832708520202010-11-29T15:10:29.359+01:002010-11-29T15:10:29.359+01:00I don't agree that words are meaningless. I d...I don't agree that words are meaningless. I doubt that Hitler personally killed many, if any, people. However he's widely accepted to cause many deaths.<br /><br />Would you report someone for offensive language in game? I do. Just last week, out of the blue I was called an offensive word in AV, and reported it. At first I ignored it, but at times a 10 year old maybe looking at the game, and a whisper printed in different color than normal bg-spam, will stand out. Sending out curse words to random people seems offensive to me.<br /><br />Although what you described to have happened doesn't seem reportable offense. However talking of GS in guild raid while one of the rules is to not use GS, seems to be against the rules.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com