tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post7240318742326904385..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: Why non-consensual PvP MMO is a niche?Gevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-33307034214635711392010-02-27T09:13:48.825+01:002010-02-27T09:13:48.825+01:00@same anonymous
"I agree it would be nonsens...@same anonymous<br /><br />"I agree it would be nonsense to say that. Just like your ridiculous analogy and putting words into peoples mouths is nonsense."<br /><br />Insults instead of argument? Guess that explains your anonymity.<br /><br />"By playing on a pvp server you are consenting to play by the rules that are applicable to the game. One of those rules is that people are allowed to initiate combat against you. This is what you are consenting to. Its not real life and its not murder. But it is consensual."<br /><br />By living in a nation, you are consenting to live by the rules of that nation. One of the rules of the nation I live in is that some crimes are punishable by death. This is what I am consenting to. It is real life, and it's not murder. But it is consensual. /sarcasm.<br /><br />I'm sorry that analogies to real life offend you, perhaps if you try a different blog, where the author doesn't constantly make analogies between WoW and real life, you will find a different audience who will respond to you with trenchant analogies between WoW and Candyland. Good luck with that.<br /><br />@Ratshag: I support many of his ideas on this topic, I neither support nor don't support his definitions because I'm not concerned with semantics except inasmuch as is necessary for clarity. Why not try rereading this post, mentally replacing the term "socials" with the phrase "some wow players"? We all have a little 'social' in us, with any of the conceivable defintions of the word, and I find his posts more insightful read in that way.Kurthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064568916740238502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-45501658429950140442010-02-26T22:37:07.562+01:002010-02-26T22:37:07.562+01:00@Kurt - I interpreted the portions of your earlier...@Kurt - I interpreted the portions of your earlier comment that explained Gevlon's definition to indicate at least partial support for it. If I was incorrect in that, then I apologize.Ratshaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12111084510465688124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-87685929144925069922010-02-26T22:27:04.038+01:002010-02-26T22:27:04.038+01:00dishonorable kills are not an punishment for ganke...dishonorable kills are not an punishment for gankers. No harm, none of the actual strict penalties that were promised. <br /><br />Gankers like to gank and the wet noodle of dishonarable kills that have no measurable impact on thier game don't count.samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08143435412222235822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-34739275159702294952010-02-26T21:55:06.090+01:002010-02-26T21:55:06.090+01:00TOTALLY agree that buying WoW, creating a characte...TOTALLY agree that buying WoW, creating a character on a PvP server, and logging in is implicit consent for PvP.<br /><br />Period.Bristalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-58588695702248240162010-02-26T21:17:20.305+01:002010-02-26T21:17:20.305+01:00'To you and all in this thread who have made t...'To you and all in this thread who have made this exact same point--imagine a businessman who goes to a 3rd world country to make an extremely lucrative but highly risky deal, a few of these deals and he will retire. Sadly, on the last such deal before his early retirement, he is murdered for the relatively small amount of cash he was carrying on him.<br /><br />You would say that he wasn't murdered, that he consented to go to that country which he knew was dangerous? Nonsense.'<br /><br />I agree it would be nonsense to say that. Just like your ridiculous analogy and putting words into peoples mouths is nonsense.<br /><br />By playing on a pvp server you are consenting to play by the rules that are applicable to the game. One of those rules is that people are allowed to initiate combat against you. This is what you are consenting to. Its not real life and its not murder. But it is consensual.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-33309392182897840232010-02-26T18:05:51.338+01:002010-02-26T18:05:51.338+01:00@anonymous who wrote "Wow... This kind of stu...@anonymous who wrote "Wow... This kind of stuff really pisses me off. You have zero clue what you are talking about. Wow had quite severe penalties for ganking grays."<br /><br />Yes, "HAD". You are responding to a comment in the present tense with a long angry rant about the past, leaving you as the only person lacking a clue.<br /><br />@Ratshag<br /><br />"You can't have it both ways. ... If you're going to expand the term "social" to mean almost anybody who does almost anything for almost any reason, then it is utterly meaningless."<br /><br />Did you even read my post? Your criticism of my post means the same thing as the last sentence of my post, almost exactly. That is really quite annoying.<br /><br />@anonymous who wrote "<br />You mean people get put on pvp servers without their consent?"<br /><br />To you and all in this thread who have made this exact same point--imagine a businessman who goes to a 3rd world country to make an extremely lucrative but highly risky deal, a few of these deals and he will retire. Sadly, on the last such deal before his early retirement, he is murdered for the relatively small amount of cash he was carrying on him.<br /><br />You would say that he wasn't murdered, that he consented to go to that country which he knew was dangerous? Nonsense.<br /><br />Yes, we are left with the situation where clicking on a pvp server means that you are consenting to future nonconsensual pvp, an awkward formulation but one which ultimately describes the situation well.Kurthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064568916740238502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-73039432769556023082010-02-26T17:35:42.936+01:002010-02-26T17:35:42.936+01:00Unfortunately you set up your entire argument only...Unfortunately you set up your entire argument only after a fallacious rebuttal of Tobold's post.<br /><br />Gevlon: "This idea sounds true, however it's completely not...If people would find PvP in an MMO "not fun", no one would queue up for a BG."<br /><br />Tobold's intention was to explain his "personal" reasons for why he doesn't see non-consensual PVP as fun: <br /><br />Tobold: "...there was a question why some people, and me in specific, don't like PvP. Well, I can give you my reasons, and some general considerations. And while I don't claim to speak for everybody..."<br /><br />To assert that PVP is fun for some, therefore it cant be NOT fun for some others, is incorrect reasoning. On top of that, I don't see how you can quantify a "fun" variable.<br /><br />And then we have typical "socials like to brag with pixels" argument, that does have merit, but sells itself short by not looking at other reasons for why PVP is fun for some and not fun for others. <br /><br />Not to mention, by your own argument, PVP doesn't need to be fun so long as it yields better pixels for casuals to care about and brag about. Ultimately "fun" isn't important at all, only how much time or difficulty it takes to obtain items that socials care about.<br /><br />Also, your starcraft or counterstrike examples don't actually contradict Tobold but enforce his own argument. I commented on his post about what people do desire is to have PVP in an environment in which skill is the only deciding factor of a game.<br /><br />Skill, made up of individual skill, team skill (teamwork), and tactics are all "fair" reasons for someone winning a match. Failing to realize this is the failure to accept personal responsibility for simply not being as good or as prepared. Gear progression, on the other hand, introduces another uncontrollable variable.<br /><br />a "fair" PVP game has only 1 uncontrolled variable, that being skill, to introduce "gear" as another uncontrollable variable only dimishes how much "skill" is necessary to win.<br /><br />Not saying your argument doesn't have its merits, but there needed to be some things cleaned up a bit.Wigginnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-47160795355931552432010-02-26T13:39:41.623+01:002010-02-26T13:39:41.623+01:00'Note, he said non-consensual pvp, queueing up...'Note, he said non-consensual pvp, queueing up for a battleground is consensual.'<br /><br />You mean people get put on pvp servers without their consent?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-6652270193177786902010-02-26T12:11:26.032+01:002010-02-26T12:11:26.032+01:00@Kurt - "Gevlon's theory explains alts pe...@Kurt - <i>"Gevlon's theory explains alts perfectly, socials who become discouraged with the slowing down of the reward process make an alt to revisit that glorious time when that *ding* sound was fast and freqent."</i><br /><br />You can't have it both ways. Is a social someone who wants easy rewards for little work, or is a social someone who mindlessly grinds for hours day after day to achieve a goal? If you're going to expand the term "social" to mean almost anybody who does almost anything for almost any reason, then it is utterly meaningless.Ratshaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12111084510465688124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-59809977248463451712010-02-26T05:47:58.607+01:002010-02-26T05:47:58.607+01:00@Sam
in wow u get greifers with no penalty.
Wow...@Sam<br /><br />in wow u get greifers with no penalty.<br /><br /><br />Wow... This kind of stuff really pisses me off. You have zero clue what you are talking about. Wow had quite severe penalties for ganking grays. You get so many dishonorable kills... You start to lose honor. Back in the rank system... You would get demoted and actually lose your shot at gear for this behavior. Actually you know what I saw... I saw tard lowbies trying to greif high lvl players by running into their AOEs to give them DKs. In fact... Now that I think about it... In every big pvp game all the way back to UO... Greifing wasn't a problem. The biggest problem was the lowbies trying to greif high lvl players by forcing them into killing them. This is why players complain so much when anti pk rules are introduced. Bc the system is abused by the people it's designed to protect. See going red in factions UO... See DK exploit in wow, see dropping gear in L2.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-66148520621278344632010-02-26T05:01:12.414+01:002010-02-26T05:01:12.414+01:00seriously you people commenting are completely clu...seriously you people commenting are completely clueless or have not enough mmo experience to really even be posting. Mmo's developed from the most hardcore pvp environment. The MUD. Anyone here play trade wars and log in to find yourbase raped and your defenses destroyed? Not only was it not fair.... You bloody weren't even logged in to defend yourself. The grand daddy of all mmo's is not wow... Sorry there fanbois. UO started it all... Was incredibly successful... And even during the hayday of pve garbage aka. EQ, Uo maintained and grew their 2d sub base. <br /> Wow is a game who primary conflict is the struggle between alliance and horde. By buying the game you are consenting to participate in a war. Ok... Just like in real life, maybe u just want to sit behind the front lines and shuffle papers. Well guess what... Even pogs better pick up their rifles and fight if they get attacked. Same in wow. U wanna craft.. U wanna raid.. U wanna ERP in goldshire. No one gives a crap. Do what you want... Just know that u might have to defend yourself if you are outside yourmain city. Playing on a non pvp server is disgusting and insulting to the idea of the game u are playing. Go get on a pvp server and you'll find a perfectly acceptable environment to play. It's not like every alliance city is camped by gangs if horde in full wrathful 24/7. <br /> Which brings me to my conclusion. The reason you all claim non consent pvp is bad is not bc it's fair... It's bc you suck at pvp. All this ganking talk. It's thecrutch of every crap mmo player since eq. Goblins don't camp Greyson bc it makes them no money. It's time wasted. Pvpers play pvp games fir the challenge. Camping Greys is not fun. High lvl yards that camp bring out hordes of other hig lvl players to kill said retards for fun and the reward/ excitement. For example... See the murder system in UO in lvl 3 of Destard dungeon. Pk killers has been around longer than you all have been playing mmo's. Unlike some of you said.... No game focuses around ganking. No game rewards u for killing low lvl people. I have no idea where you get this idea. I have played every pvp game made, and all of them are more fun and have better communities than WOW. Wow's accessibilty brought the masses to the mmo world and the masses suck. They claim unfair.. They claim gank.. Blizzard wants money so they cater. Just remember. No matter if a pvp game will never be as popular as wow.. The reason is not bc the pvp is not a viable theme. It's bc the masses that came to the mmo genre bc of wow suck.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-7456863073092811872010-02-26T03:22:34.041+01:002010-02-26T03:22:34.041+01:00I heard it all the time in Warcraft. You could lo...I heard it all the time in Warcraft. You could lose every game, and still end up getting your full season gear.<br /><br />I never found a group that just enjoyed doing arenas. It was forbidden to ever do more than 10 games a week.<br /><br />I would like to see a progressive arena rating somehow. The more games you played compared to people playing the minimum 10 games gave you a better overall rating.<br /><br />A person with a 50-50 record for the week was actually better than a team with a 5-5 record.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16507484851860959875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-33015719270396254942010-02-26T03:07:28.228+01:002010-02-26T03:07:28.228+01:00"Also the "fair" PvP games are abso..."Also the "fair" PvP games are absolutely not fair. Do you think a PuG have a chance against a clan in counterstrike? Or would I have a chance in Starcraft 1 vs 1 against someone who won a tournament?".<br /><br />Yes it's fair as you both have the same resources. The other players are just more skilled than you.<br /><br />WoW PVE adds luck to the game which makes things unfair. You can both raid for a month and one player can end up decked in epics while the second one hasn't seen a single item.<br /><br />WoW PVP tries to remove luck from the game to keep things fair. If you both get x kills you'll have the same gear.<br /><br />There's still a luck factor. Each spell you do is randomized. Weapons do random damage.<br /><br />A game like Starcraft has the luck factor removed. There's nothing random in that game. You both have the same access to resources.<br /><br />So yes, if there is no luck involved then it's a fair game. If you can't win against a trained player then that only proves this point.Carrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11155709707982913637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-952131345601341222010-02-26T02:44:06.548+01:002010-02-26T02:44:06.548+01:00@Ratshag:
Alts are a good example, there are two ...@Ratshag:<br /><br />Alts are a good example, there are two replies. Firstly, I do see people who brag/take pride in the number of leveled alts that they possess. People make fun of them, saying that only your main matters, when really either standard is arbitrary and unimportant.<br /><br />Secondly, at lower levels you level professions, skills, areas, and most everything very quickly. Gevlon's theory explains alts perfectly, socials who become discouraged with the slowing down of the reward process make an alt to revisit that glorious time when that *ding* sound was fast and freqent.<br /><br />You could make a similar counterargument to that which Kaaterina has been making: some people are trying to *achieve* something, not reach some predetermined reward threshold, so why are you guys lumping them together like this? The answer is that we are lumping them together because they are incredibly similar, the difference between someone who plays an extremely difficult single player game and someone who excels at an aspect of WoW is not extremely great. They each can set goals for themselves, and they each are playing a game designed by others, with predetermined challenges and reward increments. Donkey Kong, WoW, they both share that same structure. Similarly, someone who plays wow to achieve certain personal goals, while avoiding most incidental personal conversation ingame, is still a social, in the way Gevlon has defined it, even though in a more generic sense of the word they may be antisocial.<br /><br />Examine this section of his article:<br />"An MMO is a game too, right? For socials, not. For socials it's a deadly competition. For socials, mowing their lawn is deadly competition. For socials buying a car is deadly competition. They must keep up with the Joneses. Why do they "gogogogo"? Why do they farm?"<br /><br />This definition of social applies equally well to voluble and snobbish wealthy suburban social climbers, as it does to highly famous yet personally reserved hypercompetitive famous athletes. I would say that in WoW, this definition, if you replaced the word social with "category A", would make the average person think of Ensidia, not the people that I had --previous to this column-- been thinking of when Gevlon used the word social.<br /><br />Perhaps this is a sign that our terminology here is in need of reexamination.Kurthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064568916740238502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-51871778186815420912010-02-26T02:19:49.062+01:002010-02-26T02:19:49.062+01:00Gevlon I think there is another point regarding fa...Gevlon I think there is another point regarding fairness you missed. In most non-consensual pvp, the attack usually gets the first strike (whether they succeed is another thing).<br /><br />In real life terms it is like starting a footbal match when one teams says "ok we start now" and kicks off regardless of whether the other team is on the field or now. <br /><br />With regards to level/gear differences it is like university teams Vs Under-7s or Pro vs amateur teams. While your argument that both will have about the same chances of winning is probably correct but the chance of running away/surviving is significantly different (in soccer terms "draw").<br /><br />A level 20 can easily get 1 shoted by a geared lvl 80, and most of their attacks will miss/dodged/resisted. While a lvl 80 blue gear can still use their abilities to counter-punch or at least try to get away. your stuns/freeze/knock with standard chance of hit (before calculating mitigation based on gear which really should not come into the equation becuase it is not an inherently "unfair" element). Unless stunlocked that is.hAh Yaonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-3612602282772665522010-02-26T02:01:35.933+01:002010-02-26T02:01:35.933+01:00I regard BGs on a PvE realm as consensual PvP; Nob...I regard BGs on a PvE realm as consensual PvP; Nobody forced me to enter, nobody forces me to stay.<br /><br />The thing that makes EVE so much less convenient is the constant attention that it requires. Take 5 minutes for a phone call, finish the TV show, bathroom/Mountain Dew/Hot Pockets break, and you could lose a US$7,000 ship in EVE. In WoW, outside of raids, there is little downside to RL interruptions. Does EVE require more skill? Or is it just a hassle?<br /><br />Unless you are in a PvP only area like BGs, then non-consensual PvP is really about ambush/gank; finding an unsuspecting easy target and killing them. Non-consensual PvP rarely involves the level 10 sneaking up on the level 80 and attacking. it is almost always about unfair fights for the lolz.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />QTF @Kaaterina<br /><br />The business of renting ongoing subscriptions is a fundamentally different business than selling one-time games like old console games. It is the the corporate interest if your past subscriptions and efforts benefitted you, but not so much that new customers wont join.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-11748170090563626052010-02-25T23:34:06.573+01:002010-02-25T23:34:06.573+01:00PVP is only fun when it's a fair and competiti...PVP is only fun when it's a fair and competitive fight. In which case win or loss is not important. We know this case to be extremely rare.<br /><br />PVP is also fun, although to a leser extent than first scenario, when I am owning people. This means against really poor skilled player or undergeared player. Note that owning a bot or afk player is not as satisfying.<br /><br />Blizzard strives to make BGs balanced and competitive. However too often, pugs are up against premades and there are predominant wins in certain BGs for Horde or Alliance. The Horde on my server just cannot win Eye of The Storm but our chances of victory in WSG are very good.Jujeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11075945120950670714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-34435194430462256162010-02-25T21:50:26.987+01:002010-02-25T21:50:26.987+01:00I believe this is why Blizzard removed the old PvP...I believe this is why Blizzard removed the old PvP system. Socials wouldn't like to lose their pvp rank, would they.Bjorn Hegstadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-89799790326630575062010-02-25T21:22:27.191+01:002010-02-25T21:22:27.191+01:00Note, he said non-consensual pvp, queueing up for ...Note, he said non-consensual pvp, queueing up for a battleground is consensual.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09096632088540735022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-3981034671231064892010-02-25T20:41:42.288+01:002010-02-25T20:41:42.288+01:00If the overwhelming majority of WoW subscribers ar...If the overwhelming majority of WoW subscribers aren't here to have fun, but instead are here to grind in order to improve their social standing, then how do you explain alts? An alt is a time sink which does not contribute to your main's epic gear, or mounts, or pets, or achievements, or arena rating, or any other metric. And yet, almost everyone has one or two or twelve.Ratshaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12111084510465688124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-61224040717299278942010-02-25T19:48:28.556+01:002010-02-25T19:48:28.556+01:00MMO's, even as a "game", more reflec...MMO's, even as a "game", more reflect real life, and our expectations of it, than any discrete "game". <br /><br />We want flexible but enforced rules of behavior, that allow for an emphasis on personal freedoms.<br /><br />We want to be able to own things without them being easily taken from us, or have the value of those things change without some logical basis.<br /><br />We want variety, and the freedom to do what we want when we want within certain social boundaries.<br /><br />And we certainly want to be able to interact with others in some meaningful way.<br /><br />Gevlon, your constant struggle against the WoW "socials" flies in the face of what MMO's are becoming.<br /><br />Of course people hate non-consensual PvP in MMO's. We hate it in real life.<br /><br />That's what makes WoW as a "game" so compelling. If I want to work (grind or play AH), I can work. If I want to play a PvP game, (battleground), I can play. I can shop, work with others toward a specific goal, achieve some obscure combination of time consuming activities, or just chat with people and get to know them.<br /><br />Your focus within the game is your focus. Raiding and "end game" may have originally been the ultimate goal of most high-end, long-term MMO players, but there is much more going on now.<br /><br />WoW and the future of MMO content are clearly on a collision course with social networking.<br /><br />I'm sorry to break it to you, Gevlon, but the most valuable thing about the game you love is it's SOCIAL aspect. The M&S shall inherit the dearth, as they say.Bristalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-47838207623235082042010-02-25T19:48:15.804+01:002010-02-25T19:48:15.804+01:00@sam
The level 10 signed a contract when they cli...@sam<br /><br />The level 10 signed a contract when they clicked YES I WANT TO PLAY ON A PvP SERVER.<br /><br />They have no one to blame but themselves. I've leveled 5 or so characters on PvP servers (on an underpopulated side, no less), and it's not like low levels are helpless. <br /><br />Nobody can be everywhere at the same time, not even the most hardcore of gankers. Know your surroundings helps infinitely more than gear or level difference.Kaaterinanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-5638383156385968402010-02-25T19:45:22.986+01:002010-02-25T19:45:22.986+01:00Anyone ganked, harassed, or otherwise molested out...Anyone ganked, harassed, or otherwise molested out in the world while questing or farming gave their consent the second they chose a PvP server. The game even suggests a Normal (PvE) server by default when you create your first character. It wasn't a special contract, allowing you to gank or be ganked only when you personally give permission; it's open season, 24/7. If you can't live with this reality, it's no ones fault but your own. The transfer option is always there. Don't want to pay? Suck it up, or reroll. Stupidity does occasionally have a cost.<br /><br />In a game that links most peoples daily in-game activity to that of countless other people, the idea that no one should be able to disrupt your itinerary via PvP is absolutely ludicrous. I might want to sell silk cloth for 500g per stack. Is it unfair when I'm undercut? Is it unfair when no one buys it? I may want to do [Zombifest] during my random daily, which just happens to be CoS. Is it unfair if the other random group members are disinterested? I might fancy taming Loque'nahak. Is it unfair if someone kills him for their Frostbitten achievement? Why are these encroachments upon one's personal "freedoms" not bemoaned with the same fervor?<br /><br />You're not in your own private instance when out in the world, doing whatever non-PvP activity you do. It's one big continent-sized dungeon+battleground, and any other player in the given zone are potential competitors. It may be your $15/month, but it only buys you the privilege of playing the game, not playing it however you might like. You actually have more control over PvP in WoW (by way of server choice) than you do over most other player interactions. It's a problem that's easily "fixed" for oneself.Coeur-de-fernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-67841511849837616032010-02-25T18:00:20.633+01:002010-02-25T18:00:20.633+01:00'Except in WOW 80's can pvp against 10'...'Except in WOW 80's can pvp against 10's. That would be like peewee football teams going against Pro teams. In real life if the Pro players went to the schoolyard and beat up all the kids just because they could they'd be removed from society problem solved.'<br /><br />Except at level 10 a player has to leave the starting areas or turn pvp on to get ganked. But yeah, I get your point, that's not something I would say is fair. When I made my last comment I was thinking more of BGs and arena, and still don't see how these can be described as unfair. <br />Also, if high level players ganking lowbies is unfair, is it not also unfair having high level elites roaming about certain areas killing lower level players on sight? The Fel Reavers in Hellfire for example.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-64868966961815262682010-02-25T17:37:39.128+01:002010-02-25T17:37:39.128+01:00Guild Wars was an extremely successful PvP-focused...Guild Wars was an extremely successful PvP-focused MMO (technically COORPG, but that's ANet's bullshit) before the new campaigns ruined its balance. It was fun for many to queue up against other teams in a variety of maps with a variety of objectives and use your own team and strategy against another team's strategy.Armondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03200628248855719672noreply@blogger.com