tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post658083180570809241..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: The 1/3 rule in gold bidGevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-25559119751321406642010-06-24T21:07:31.075+02:002010-06-24T21:07:31.075+02:00@D:
The winner pays the amount bid. Bidding more ...@D:<br /><br />The winner pays the amount bid. Bidding more than the required increment is suboptimal.Strumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-19397031946217699072010-06-22T20:35:03.833+02:002010-06-22T20:35:03.833+02:00@ardoRic-
If you look at the log for the fight th...@ardoRic-<br /><br />If you look at the log for the fight that Gevlon linked to, Ul's dps of 5834 is 21% higher than Chopsui's 4812, and 62% higher than Baitra's 3589. So rather than exaggerating, my eyeball estimate actually was low. How much of this was do to the epic arrows, and how much to class imbalance or superior skill or group tactics, I have no idea. I just know that ammunition dps is non-trivial, which is what I originally stated.Wilsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-81627638774952200502010-06-22T17:37:30.594+02:002010-06-22T17:37:30.594+02:00A last precision : about cooperative abuse, as sta...A last precision : about cooperative abuse, as stated by Zekta, i said it doesn't really matter, but i need to emphasis "because of gold limit".<br />It still matter a lot about abusing the pot : everybody lost gold.<br />So it's another good reason to drop 1/3 rule, in my opinion.Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03252509251520747862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-70880831762929286362010-06-22T17:14:30.060+02:002010-06-22T17:14:30.060+02:00I just saw 2 others problems with you current vers...I just saw 2 others problems with you current version of gdkp.<br />The first one is so big than i can't believe i'm the only one to see it (and why only now ? Maybe i'm just fooling myself... if so, blame my poor english skill and lack of sleep).<br /><br />First problem : winer of the bid (FG) don't pay his price, but price of secong guy (SG). If bids are strictly incremental (aka : minimal bid is also maximum bid), there's no problem. It will take forever for greats items, but it can't be abused. If not, the Ninja Goblin (NG) will wait for the first bid, and right after said a Stupid Price (SP). SP just have to be too big to be reached by anyone, like gold cap, for example. So NG win, and pay the first bid, probably something so low than he can obviously sold the item he win right after with a great benefit.<br />Fix : strictly incremental bids (bad solution, bids will take forever) or make FG pay his price, not SG's. I don't have a deep knowledge of Vickrey's theory (thanks to Zekta links), but as far as i understand, to pay SG's price is only good whih secrets bids (and that can't be used for obvious reasons).<br /><br />Second problem : your will to fix the fear of competition is good, and the 1/3 rule seem to adress that (with the problem of cooperative abuse, stated by Zekta, but i don't think it really matter, because of gold limit, as i previously explain).<br />But, in fact, i think it's counter productive. As a priest, will i join that 6 priests pug ? In a rolling pug, the answer is no (too much competition). In a standard gdkp, the answer is yes : with the competition, the pot will be great, so even if i don't have loot, i will have lot of gold. There's 2 downsides. First : if there's no priest loot, there won't be any competition, so no gold. But it's a luck problem, not a gdkp one. Second : it's still better to be the only one of his class... but not that better (as opposite to a rolling pug, where there isn't any good reason to have competition).<br />So i think the competition problem is very low in gdkp pugs : the system take care of that by himself. If people still fear competition, it's just because they don't understand that.<br />In my opinion, you don't need the 1/3 rule.Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03252509251520747862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-22986471186179514962010-06-22T10:48:01.662+02:002010-06-22T10:48:01.662+02:00Damn, I posted the wrong spec on my previous comme...Damn, I posted the wrong spec on my previous comment.<br /><br /><a href="http://eu.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=11&tal=0000000000000000000000000000500232132322010353100330310511203503012000000000000000000" rel="nofollow">This</a> is the spec I was suggesting for Triev to use.<br /><br />It doesn't cover glyphs, but my suggestion is to have Glyph of Growl as the only tanking glyph, and use the other two slots for dps glyphs, unless we see Triev die.ardoRichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11034320697611212733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-87210618684940900172010-06-22T09:54:34.713+02:002010-06-22T09:54:34.713+02:00@ Anonymous about the ICC ammo,
The problem is no...@ Anonymous about the ICC ammo,<br /><br />The problem is not it costing Primordial Saronite to buy, since that can be obtained from running random dungeons. The real issue is you need Ashen Veredict reputation to buy the recipe, which you can't get without raiding.<br /><br />I always noticed the blue glow of our hunters' arrows, but didn't make much of it because I figured they'd be cleared by Gevlon.ardoRichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11034320697611212733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-45805653011074490692010-06-22T09:51:30.396+02:002010-06-22T09:51:30.396+02:00Triev could try using this spec for his feral buil...Triev could try using <a href="http://eu.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=11&tal=0000000000000000000000000000503232130322010353120302313511203500010000000000000000000" rel="nofollow">this spec</a> for his feral build.<br /><br />It goes away with some talents he won't need for single target tanking to make room for a lot more dps talents. This spec should be viable unless the other tank is a DK since it doesn't bring attack speed debuff.ardoRichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11034320697611212733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-26824459857985092752010-06-22T09:00:00.128+02:002010-06-22T09:00:00.128+02:00@The Gnome of Zurich
You are right and wrong. rec...@The Gnome of Zurich<br /><br />You are right and wrong. recipe is costly because it requires 1 primordial saronite. On the other hand it is unwise to buy recipe. Even now when price of primordial saronite dropped a lot and it sells for 500g price of arrows is at about 3-4g/stack (my server) so for 1 primordial saronite you get 125 stacks of arrows. This amount is more than enough for raiding until the end of expansion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-55549252157694935802010-06-22T05:57:42.022+02:002010-06-22T05:57:42.022+02:00@Gnome: you are damn right. ICC ammunition banned....@Gnome: you are damn right. ICC ammunition banned.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-32389078401418669622010-06-22T05:17:01.334+02:002010-06-22T05:17:01.334+02:00Gevlon -- you should make the arrow exception clea...Gevlon -- you should make the arrow exception clear, I don't remember that. I agree it's reasonable as they are plentiful and cheap, but the recipe is only available to those already raiding ICC (even if just trash), so it kinda goes against the grain. The same is true of many enchants using abyss crystals and other enhancements.The Gnome of Zurichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03203965173625552516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-10531405999917969322010-06-22T03:04:35.056+02:002010-06-22T03:04:35.056+02:00"Have you noticed that in PuGs and 5-mans alw..."Have you noticed that in PuGs and 5-mans always hunters and death knights pull the lowest DPS?"<br /><br />Nope cant say I have. Hunter's especially (mine included) take great pleasure at ensuring we are at the top of the charts - of course there will always be Huntards and DiKs but please don't tar us all with the same brush.Breevokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13007745955089390880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-47519890249148375802010-06-22T01:20:57.608+02:002010-06-22T01:20:57.608+02:00@Cyann54:
And that's exactly what we did.
...@Cyann54: <br /><br />And that's exactly what we did. <br /><br />There's this issue that apparently we're all hardcore raiders, but for some reason our hardcore tree tauren can't win the dps chart while being in cat form for the first time.Saithirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02121434574777329896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-86296903600245315532010-06-22T00:33:22.613+02:002010-06-22T00:33:22.613+02:00Why 1/3? Why not a more even number for 100g and ...Why 1/3? Why not a more even number for 100g and 250g increments? 3/10 or 2/5 makes more sense to me. Unless there's some non-arbitrary logic to 33% specifically.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10337390193891963656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-81227384705161489142010-06-21T23:06:56.490+02:002010-06-21T23:06:56.490+02:00"Hey they almost killed festergut, no one tal..."Hey they almost killed festergut, no one talks about that?"<br /><br />well then, allow me.<br /><br />First off, there's a little imprecision: it wasn't my very first time healing in a raid as I was healing on our Blood Prince Council kill. It was, however, a very different sort of healing. On Blood Princes I was one of four healers, so there was a lot more slacking going on. This was my first time healing in a healing intensive fight.<br /><br />I should say that Misako does just fine with just about as much mp5 as I have on my throughput gear, but I had to go get an mp5 set so I could keep up. Last week we had someone link a post in the US forums where someone said something like "ICC in blues is easy for the best players in the world". Koushirou commented on that during raid time, and I concur: we are hardly the best players in the world, we still have a lot of L2P issues... which we get around to solving. That's what makes our group strong, being motivated to improve enough to pull through.<br /><br />@ Wilson. your figures of 20-50% more are very exhagerated. He does good dps because he puts in the effort to make it. If you check <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Botv6gEGtKY" rel="nofollow">the video</a>, you may notice he moves in stutters to avoid losing auto-shots when going for spores. That's not trivial, and just that makes him gain a lot more dps than switching saronite razorheads for iceblade arrows.<br /><br />@ Cyan, we were doing that (the Bear tank going first), but it was probably not working as well as it could since the bear's spec isn't as DPS oriented as it could be, but mostly due to Triev never having played kitty before.ardoRichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11034320697611212733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-82663658489325356962010-06-21T22:28:40.060+02:002010-06-21T22:28:40.060+02:00@Gevlon -
So what? Lots of banned non-profession...@Gevlon - <br /><br />So what? Lots of banned non-profession-specific epics are made from non-epic materials. Either you're "all blue" or you aren't.Wilsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-52746315622606068982010-06-21T22:24:29.800+02:002010-06-21T22:24:29.800+02:00Small trick for Festergut to squeeze out some more...Small trick for Festergut to squeeze out some more DPS. Have the bear tank first. The debuff he gets increases his damage by a large amount. Then when the 2nd tank taunts off him have him switch to kitty and dps. Just make sure he watches his aggro. A hand of Salvation is not a bad idea either. It wont matter if his aggro is low when it comes time for him to tank again because taunt will take care of it.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16541561758582961810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-265519685373388682010-06-21T22:09:33.780+02:002010-06-21T22:09:33.780+02:00@Wilson: because 2 crystallyzed shadows are "...@Wilson: because 2 crystallyzed shadows are "epic".<br /><br />@last anonymous: people following bad strategies SHALL sufferGevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-43522190450698080392010-06-21T21:43:58.025+02:002010-06-21T21:43:58.025+02:00I cannot help but notice that Utalesko, who was ro...I cannot help but notice that Utalesko, who was rocking the dps meters to the tune of 20%-50% higher than everyone else, has epic Iceblade arrows eqipped (according to the armory). I don't see how this is permitted. Not my area of expertise, so I don't know how much of an advantage this is, but I expect it is non-trivial.Wilsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-84207247395004892772010-06-21T21:40:08.128+02:002010-06-21T21:40:08.128+02:00Gevlon's response to the comments here don'...Gevlon's response to the comments here don't make sense. He claims that the offered strategies for beating the 1/3 system will not work against optimal strategies. While this may be true, when was the last time anybody was in a raid full of rational actors carrying out optimal strategies? Gevlon's entire blog seems dedicated to documenting ways in which other players are *not* rational actors! Clearly, strategies that capitalize on the less-than-optimal strategies of others have a lot of opportunities for success.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-77759596178457461662010-06-21T18:35:45.012+02:002010-06-21T18:35:45.012+02:00Hey guys, I think this is one of those ideas to ju...Hey guys, I think this is one of those ideas to just try out rather than debate. Whatever flaws or benefits the 1/3 system has will be pretty apparent quickly, so just give it a try.Eaten by a Gruehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01741777795065029482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-81106550588519481052010-06-21T18:32:34.892+02:002010-06-21T18:32:34.892+02:00"Hey they almost killed festergut, no one tal..."Hey they almost killed festergut, no one talks about that?"<br /><br />pre-kill grats? Normally i wouldn't ever say that, and especially not for a boss that Gevlon's been boasting about downing (for what, 3 weeks now, more?), and somehow never got around to it. I'll save my grats (and it really is meant, even if i'll (try to) poke holes in how hard the challenge is in your festergut post), for when it does die.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18003263081314806236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-25882241394671392832010-06-21T18:23:37.689+02:002010-06-21T18:23:37.689+02:00Also:
"BN offers the item for sale. First guy...Also:<br />"BN offers the item for sale. First guy already knows SGBP, as it was obviously announced by SG himself who stopped bidding. So FG offers SGBP and not a cent more. It's unreasonable for SG to bid more now if he did not bid 20 seconds ago, and BN has no options. He must accept any gold to decrease his losses."<br />Scenario 3:<br />BN offers the item for sale. First guy already knows SGBP, as it was obviously announced by SG himself who stopped bidding. So FG offers SGBP and not a cent more. It's unreasonable for SG to bid more now if he did not bid 20 seconds ago, and BN has no options. He must accept any gold to decrease his losses.<br /><br />SG stops at 10k. BN bids at 10.1k. FG drops out, ad leaves BN to foot the bill. BN pays 10.1k.tells FG he’ll sell the item for 10.1k+50% of the 3333g(.33*10.1k)=11766.5<br />BNmoney=-10.1k+11766.5=1666.5g profit<br />FBmoney=+3333g-11766.5=-8433 loss<br />Raidmoney=10.1k*.67=6767g gain<br /><br />What you’re basically doing is giving the BN a 30% discount if he can find a way to partner with the “#2 slot”. BN being a goblin, he has the opportunity to sell a 15% discount, which comes directly from the profits going towards the entire raid. You’d be better served by just dropping the 1/3, and letting it play out. Also note the 1666.5g profit is enough room if he gets burned occasionally(no reason to if done right, as you’re essentially getting the item for cheaper than the top bid would’ve for the buyer) on miscalculated loot.<br />-also note that i used big numbers (10k>> 100gbid), which added alot of granularity. These loops holes might break down if items start stelling for 300g on average, because you can't hit that 30% sweetspot, but the 10k price is pretty standard for items like DFO in pugs, from what i've read.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18003263081314806236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-17173791180482442372010-06-21T18:23:37.690+02:002010-06-21T18:23:37.690+02:00"The bid ninja is obviously identifiable. If ..."The bid ninja is obviously identifiable. If he bids on an item he can't use or obviously won't (like a bear to a resto item despite he never-ever healed in his life), it's obvious that he is a ninja."<br /><br />Not in a GDKP. I could see hybrids rolling on DFO/DBW no matter the spec, if they have the gold to throw at it. I normally run feral, and i'd happily drop 15k on a DFO for my offspec. The whole point of GDKP is if you have the gold, you get what you want. gold> everything. Even if not, just rolling on role dependant gear leaves you plenty of room to make gold. <br /><br /><br />"However I believe it's pretty hard to find one exactly because some high prizes break the agreement."<br />Maybe my guild is out of the norm, but i could find a guildie in less than 10minutes, and it'd be worth it to trust him (he won't ninja a DFO and get booted from the guild.) I've had guildies on alts roll for gear that is questionable, just for another shot at the item.<br /><br />Hell, i could probably get any person with no morals and half a brain to do it. "hey, if X drops, i want you to bid after me, just after the last guy drops out. After you do, then i'll bid again. I get that extra 200g back, and we'll split the rest of the 1/3, k?"<br /><br />Scenario 1:<br />There are two people bidding against item a (let’s say it’s a DFO). There are 3 people involved, first player, 2nd player, and bid ninja. All 3 duke it out, and the price of the item reaches 10k. 2nd player just made the last bid at 10k. Bid ninja ups it to 10.1k immediately, knowing there is a good chance player 1 will follow. Player 1 bids 10.2k. Ninja bid immediately falls out.(if you’re really sure on the worth of an item, say DFO/DBW, or something else really rare, you can risk going higher, but if not, just stop here.) Bam, ninja bidder just made 33% of 10.2k, or 3366g.<br /><br />Scenario 2:<br />Me + a guildie in your gdkp. (first, I may or may not drop my guild tag, if I’m worried about you catching me. I can get a reinvite in 2 hours, no problem. Or use alts… etc).<br />3+ people(first player, me, guildie), dfo is at 10k gold. As soon as first player drops out, me and guildie stop. Say we upped it to 12k total. I pay 12k, guildie gets back 4k. I get 2k for my initial investment, and we split the extra 2k 50/50. (this will always work as long as the extra bids are < 33% return, as swordfish said.)<br /><br /><br />The problem with all of your conclusions is "let the first guy use the optimal strategy: don't bid against bid ninja". You CAN'T assume the optimal condition. You always always always assume large averages/worst possible situation That's like playing chess and saying "assume player 1 will use every optimal counter-move", which unless you're Deep Blue won’t happen.<br /><br />cont'd-post cut off by character limit-Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18003263081314806236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-89886348135813977582010-06-21T17:00:33.192+02:002010-06-21T17:00:33.192+02:00As much as I appreciate your project, I sincerely ...As much as I appreciate your project, I sincerely doubt the healers will have time to throw out some DPS during Festergut. Festergut is an intense healing fight. It's one of those fights where the tank can die in a matter of 2-3 seconds.<br /><br />That being said I have no doubts about you downing him, I just wouldn't rely on the healers for it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-74762394950163268862010-06-21T16:37:29.688+02:002010-06-21T16:37:29.688+02:00On fesetergut, depending on your view of this, you...On fesetergut, depending on your view of this, you might want to disallow the use of the stackable fire festival food buffs. While this is available to anyone, they do add up and are temporary. Perhaps use only for farm fights (if you don't use extended lockouts) or not at all to prevent ammunition from falling into the hands of nay sayers.Ranjurmnoreply@blogger.com