tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post6305907786580176818..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: Hard mode soccerGevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-42453382098344170492010-04-13T06:30:36.936+02:002010-04-13T06:30:36.936+02:00this post is thought provoking, i like the compari...this post is thought provoking, i like the comparisons you make. i would like to point out that i dont feel like 90% of the wow community are asking for easier content so that they may participate. i believe there is a smaller percentage that are complaining, but i think the majority of players know where they stand and do not expect content to be made easier just for them. i feel like blizzard is pushing this because it is in their best interest. by making more content available to more players they are increasing their playerbase and therefore their income.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14700378747764557840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-22490321212018976192010-04-13T02:59:18.253+02:002010-04-13T02:59:18.253+02:00No one owns or controls soccer. There are certain...No one owns or controls soccer. There are certain authorities on soccer rules and regulations, but they can be ignored by most players, since most soccer is unorganized. Leagues and teams are the guilds and they're free to make whatever restrictions they want.<br /><br />Your analogy doesn't really work. There are no soccer devs and high-end content is not all that different from low end content. Then there's the problem of comparing a pure PvP game (soccer) to the PvE content of WoW. Soccer is as hard as the other players make it, not the devs.Klepsacovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915576683657376929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-84926635042667277202010-04-13T02:10:10.322+02:002010-04-13T02:10:10.322+02:00What I also find funny is that Gevlon's sugges...What I also find funny is that Gevlon's suggestion is essentially what Blizzard's EPEEN April's Fool joke was all about, though instead of moving to a new tier of server, the well-geared player gets an auto-ignore feature, where he does not see the noobs and they cannot message him. Gevlon appears to be on the level, however.Eaten by a Gruehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01741777795065029482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-10769624714592106932010-04-12T23:44:35.852+02:002010-04-12T23:44:35.852+02:00Glad you rewrote it. Read through the old version ...Glad you rewrote it. Read through the old version and had nothing to say because it seemed so fragmented.<br /><br />Still have nothing to say.Xaxziminrax IIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04653730368168764013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-70094213098499429562010-04-12T20:44:18.651+02:002010-04-12T20:44:18.651+02:00The difficulty with your analogy is that one does ...The difficulty with your analogy is that one does not have to pay to play soccer. You certainly can - such as in a club that has membership dues - but there is no obligation to pony up cash for your game of goal-posts-ala-rock.<br /><br />But in a situation where you're paying for entertainment, it becomes irritating to a social to feel that they're paying the same amount for 'less content'. Because he refuses to believe his cash pays for the privilege of logging in and the data storage of his characters, rather than admitting that the purchase price of the box covered all costs of creating patches, expansions, and raids. <br /><br />Doing so would mean he'd have to admit he pays more per hour to enjoy less - by his own decisions of how to use his time.<br /><br />By blaming you and I, rather than himself, saying that we're ruining his enjoyment - instead of realizing that he needs to measure his happiness by his own goals rather than our unrelated accomplishments - he's able to continue believing that he is entitled to anything he wants. <br /><br />He sees himself losing a part of his paycheck every month, and thinks that this means he's paying for more game experience, rather than realizing he's paying for server maintenance and customer care salaries.<br /><br />He sees more money go to Blizzard - surely that means he's entitled to more things!Shannon Fowlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10951230248691746480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-76483404267651181142010-04-12T20:41:00.140+02:002010-04-12T20:41:00.140+02:00Gevlon, you seem to have such a fierce hate on for...Gevlon, you seem to have such a fierce hate on for casuals that you are failing to think through your suggestions to appease them. Try to imagine a tiered server for a moment: My alts aren't on the same server as my main. I can't play with my friends or my wife unless our respective toons are on precisely the same level of progression. If I have long term friends on my server I lose contact with them if I want to raid or pvp a little more aggressively than I did last week. When I get punted up a server I suddenly have no guild, no friends, no one to play with. <br /><br />While there are surely people out there who seriously only play to enhance their score most people play for the social relationships they develop over time. I am a moderately hardcore player but I continue to play because I can keep in touch with my far flung friends through playing together in WOW. <br /><br />There are an incredible range of players out there and the system of allowing people to sample the content they want while maintaining their relationships is a critical part of WOW. Some casuals are very smart, motivated people who like the connection WOW provides socially while not wanting to push into a serious raid schedule. Those people pay just as much as anyone else and marginalizing them is foolish.<br /><br />Sky - www.brightcape.comSkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10723733406348223879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-67847458083086474562010-04-12T19:29:14.839+02:002010-04-12T19:29:14.839+02:00Bosses ARE all the same. Try finding a boss mechan...Bosses ARE all the same. Try finding a boss mechanic that can't be described as:<br /><br />Don't stand in the ___.<br />Do stand in the ___.<br />Stay close to ___ player.<br />Switch dps to ___ add.<br />Stop dps during ___.<br />Interrupt the ___ spell.<br />Cleanse the ___ debuff.<br />Kite the ___.<br />Spam heals on ___.<br />Blow cooldowns during ___.<br />Taunt at ___ stacks.<br />Spread out by ___ yards.<br /><br />Aside from vehicle fights, those are the only skills beyond knowing your spells/rotations. Once you have those skills, every new boss just requires learning the graphics and warnings, and applying the appropriate action.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-60139355118566679132010-04-12T19:29:14.838+02:002010-04-12T19:29:14.838+02:00From what I can tell, in most professional sports ...From what I can tell, in most professional sports there are players who complain that they do not play enough, or that they are not paid enough, or that the fans are too critical, or that the press is too critical, or that the coach is difficult to play for... etc.<br /><br />And they aren't paying $15 a month to play baseball, or basketball, or soccer. Many are being paid tens of millions of dollars every year, and they whine like children. And these are the ones who made it through the process to get to that level!<br /><br />On the other end, the people who are recruiting for their sports teams have spent tens of millions (perhaps even hundreds of millions) on them, and so they presumably take the role very seriously. How much did the guild leader pay in order to assemble his group of all stars to kill the Lich King? $15 a month?Tonushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01082528970434639776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-31611898496292727982010-04-12T18:37:36.407+02:002010-04-12T18:37:36.407+02:00Blizzard doesn't change things because people ...Blizzard doesn't change things because people whine, they change things because it can keep subscribers or increase subscriber numbers.<br /><br />I suspect that Blizzard realized that in BC many players would get to Kara and then be 'finished'and unsubscribe. To correct this problem, they made more content available to players but opening raids, and kept these same players hanging on as subscribers.<br /><br />Conversely, to keep the hard core raiders subscribing, they introduced hard modes --- a virtual wall to beat against --- a measure by which to feel superior. And if they lose a few hard-core raid who feel that hard modes trivialize content, they more than make up in subscriber numbers by the M&S who stay subscribed for months more.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14843972343735300065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-53977307913754488582010-04-12T16:56:09.131+02:002010-04-12T16:56:09.131+02:00The reason sports are succesfull are because of th...The reason sports are succesfull are because of the teams, the biggest sports have teams from an area, not via a team name relating to nothing.<br />I am from area x, therefore I support x team, also I dislike Y team because they are differn't to me.<br /><br />The other reason sports are so succesful is because of the business model behind it in supporting your team. You are not playing the game, you have no impact on the score, yet when "your team" scores you feel as if you just scored. The feeling of excitement the ability to brag to your friends about how your team scored, when infact you did nothing at all. That is why sport is so succesfull, it is fooling the socials into believing they are part of something that they are not. They are not part of the team, even though they buy the tickets and wear the shirt, socks, hat scarf and more, and update the kit every new season. They then believe they are more HC and can show it off at the local pub. <br /><br />Similar to how you can ride your new hog in ogg or durotar, you can wear your kit in the pub and show everyone how HC you are wearing the kit.<br /><br />As such e-sports will never take off untill they embrace this market model properly instead of making teams for the HC only, only imba good arena players may be in SK gaming! nono, it must be that anyone can BE sk gaming. All i have to do is wear there tshirt, use the mouse mat and purchase the rights to watch them play, and even play with them the same way football stars will play with kids to promote there team, pro's must play with scrubs to promote themselves.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10694474581804321826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-20925543057855490282010-04-12T16:54:09.228+02:002010-04-12T16:54:09.228+02:00I find that this post suffered from the lack of a ...I find that this post suffered from the lack of a clearly defined problem it was attempting to fix. I would assume that the "problem" (which really needs to have a clear definition before moving on to the solution) is that "people complained about the accessibility and in turn the game landscape was altered to cater to them."<br /><br />Given that is the "problem" a tiered server like that would only complicate things. WoW is as much a social outlet as it is a gaming outlet. With your proposed solution, the alts I'm leveling up would have no interaction with the rest of my guild. In fact, my level 80's that don't raid would have no interaction with my guild and would not even be able to receive mail from my mains. The people who complained about not having access to the content didn't complain because they necessarily wanted to run hyjal, but rather they felt cut off from the rest of the gaming community. They had a desire to "do THAT" and independent of what "that" is, they will always have that desire.<br /><br />Blizzard has attempted to deal with this problem in 2 ways. 1 is with attunement, whether its keys from faction or quests or whatever, and 2 is with hard modes.<br /><br />BC showed us what can go wrong with attunement. WotLK showed us that hard/heroic model can be a success. We have casuals PUGing into ICC yet we have some of the best players in the world finally clearing the hardest content. I think going forward the best solution would be to take everything that was a success from both attunement and heroic mode and combine it.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04464956628510159148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-49659753039289649792010-04-12T16:52:08.420+02:002010-04-12T16:52:08.420+02:00I wouldn't like that. Indeed, I doubt that Wot...I wouldn't like that. Indeed, I doubt that WotLK was a success like classic WoW or BC was.<br /><br />The subscribtion numbers stagnate for quite some time by now.<br />(Which is proven by the fact that Blizzard didn't annouce 12mio players so far.)<br /><br />Players actually like somebody to look up to. Yes, they complain all the time. But in the end they like it. You shouldn't do a stupid mistake, like giving only PvE raiders good equip and PvP players not, of course. <br /><br />But, ignoring stpid mistakes, I think that the classic and BC formula for WoW was basically quite successful; and WotLK less successful.<br /><br />On a general critique of WoW and WotLK read my <a href="http://nilsmmoblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/thought-on-cataclysm.html" rel="nofollow"> blog </a>.Nilshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468755466492675831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-74950200658956845332010-04-12T16:40:31.696+02:002010-04-12T16:40:31.696+02:00The main objection I'd have to something like ...The main objection I'd have to something like this is the ability to mix the groups. For instance, in our guild, we'll mix our cutting edge Kingslayer toons with our alts to help the alt groups, and basically empower half a dozen or more 10-mans in our very small guild. In your model, those Kingslayer toons would be off on another realm entirely, leaving our poor alts stranded!Persnicketynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-27494007632811556252010-04-12T16:24:18.077+02:002010-04-12T16:24:18.077+02:00Comparing soccer to WoW must be a joke. In WoW pe...Comparing soccer to WoW must be a joke. In WoW people pay to play. In soccer people are payed to play by fans.<br /><br />The huge stadiums aren't payed for by regular soccer players, they are payed for by fans.<br /><br />I am not a fan of top guilds, and I don't want to pay for content created specifically for them (heroic Arthas for example, I would be fine if there was no such thing until/if 90% of guilds reached that point).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-70884413296272736202010-04-12T15:42:56.481+02:002010-04-12T15:42:56.481+02:00If players playing at level X (top 10%, top 1%, wh...If players playing at level X (top 10%, top 1%, whatever) generated so much dedication from their fans that they bring in millions of dollars the way professional athletes do, then I'd say of course they're entitled to resources and content beyond what the masses get. But the cold hard reality is, they're just amateurs, paying the same $15/month to play on the field as everyone else.Wilsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-12690002228065967752010-04-12T15:42:56.480+02:002010-04-12T15:42:56.480+02:00Have you considered that the elite players would n...Have you considered that the elite players would not like the separate server model either?<br /><br />There seems to be alot of equating of socials and M&S. I think the non-morons are largely social as well.<br /><br />What would your 6k gearscore mean if everyone around you had a 6k gearscore? Would you want to keep playing?<br /><br />Let's face it, the content in WoW is not that great. Taunt boss, stay out of fire, learn a few mechanics, kill adds, wipe until perfect, that's it.<br /><br />The key to WoW is the reward system, with the player feeling more and more powerful after each piece of gear, but how would you feel more powerful if everyone around you was just as powerful?<br /><br />So the elite players need the scrubs, as much as they may hate grouping with them, I do not think they really want them to go away, or they would lose their feeling of being better than them.Eaten by a Gruehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01741777795065029482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-43233888996832780012010-04-12T15:31:28.695+02:002010-04-12T15:31:28.695+02:00@larisa
Sorry Larisa, I have to disagree with you...@larisa<br /><br />Sorry Larisa, I have to disagree with you, it's not about the community. We are merely a very small "user group" who talk about the playing experience. <br /><br />If 50 people respond to Gevlon's post and that represents 1/1000 of the people who read it (which is probably generous), then we represent less than 0.5% of the player base. <br /><br />With this level of influence (remembering that 1 player = 1 subscription) even the most sensational idea that caused everyone of those 50,000 players to cancel their subscription (if not implemented) would be little more than background noise to Blizzard.Chewynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-11080221549738286272010-04-12T13:47:14.557+02:002010-04-12T13:47:14.557+02:00As by a coincidence I just finished a text-of-wall...As by a coincidence I just finished a text-of-wall analysis on difficulty levels building on the ski resort analogy. It was inspired by my ski vacation though and not by the comments here, which I hadn't read as I wrote it. I'll publish it tuesday or wednesday. The point is that I think both the wow players who prefer black slopes and the beginners who want it green have some things to learn from the skiing approach. It's not just about the choices of Blizzard I think. It's also about the community.LarĂsahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05769822260333419777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-64836352088023548842010-04-12T13:45:11.175+02:002010-04-12T13:45:11.175+02:00Starcraft 2 will have several leagues based on pla...Starcraft 2 will have several leagues based on player skill. It's possible for that game because it's about matches which require skill only (no gear) to win, just like soccer. And no matter how bad you are, you will play the same content as everyone else.<br /><br />Blizzard has done the same with the Arena matchmaking system in WoW. Everyone gets to play the same content as everyone else, and you'll face opponents which you technically should be able to beat (regardless of gear!).<br /><br />However (as Azzur already said), we're talking about PVE matches here. And those are much harder to balance around the different skill levels of all players.<br />Blizzard is actually trying to do this, and gating/segregating the content is definitely not the answer. Just like PVP matchmaking, you'll need PVE matchmaking. Provide easier/harder versions of the same content. And there's the big problem: calculating a PVP rating and matching opponents based on that rating, is a lot easier than creating (generating?) PVE content based on a PVE rating (and how do you measure such a rating?).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-79666155464560384202010-04-12T13:37:21.268+02:002010-04-12T13:37:21.268+02:00If you're looking for a Blizzard game that fol...If you're looking for a Blizzard game that follows the "soccer model" of progression, I recommend Starcraft II.Ephemeronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16403198085556121203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-80826923090120685112010-04-12T13:23:22.860+02:002010-04-12T13:23:22.860+02:00The reason you never hear "FIFA makes this ga...The reason you never hear "FIFA makes this game only for 1% of the players". is because the rules have stayed the same. They do not constantly change the rules of soccer so that they can get more and more unskilled players but also to keep the skilled players. World of Warcraft has changed its rules so much that is is nothing like the game it once was. They have changed the roles of many classes, made the outdoors questing part of the game so easy that a small child can do it, and tried to rope casual players into raiding by making most raiding easier, also. People don't like to put in the time to level characters only to find that their role in the game has changed. Soccer stays the same. If you want to move up, you decide what position on the field suits you best, you work hard at it, and you become good at it. Too bad Blizzard doesn't get that simple concept. QQ whatever.Yagglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15177750815584983551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-11481110658800162752010-04-12T13:06:45.157+02:002010-04-12T13:06:45.157+02:0099% of people who play football only play for enjo...99% of people who play football only play for enjoyment. That 99% know that they will never be a professional footballer and 98.9% of that won't care. <br /><br />Fifa was made after the invention of football whereas WoW was created after Blizzard. <br /><br />Also you're progression of football is wrong. You play football as a kid, your father thinks your good, you go to a try out for a local team. You get accepted of rejected. You either then go try out for another team or you become a youth member of a proper team, if you're good you'll rise up the inner team system till you get to the u19s or reserves, don't make the grade there then you go back to finding another team. <br /><br />Not many teams actually even have professional players. Only some can make a living from football, the majority have real jobs too. <br /><br />Oh and nobody uses rocks as goalposts, it's jumpers. <br /><br />If you enjoy football you lay for your team no matter what level it's at.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-23676919190386870532010-04-12T12:36:52.851+02:002010-04-12T12:36:52.851+02:00Sorry, Gevlon, but you just can't simply defin...Sorry, Gevlon, but you just can't simply define raid encounters in such meta model level and imply that they are all the same just 'recoloured'.<br /><br />I mean I can define all board games as:<br />- has a board divided in areas<br />- different coloured figures can be put on these areas<br />- the figures can be moved from one area to another<br />- figures can sometimes be removed from the board<br />- there can be a random number generating device involved<br /><br />Then I can say:<br />If you have played checkers, you have played chess (and all other existing board games in the world).<br /><br />Same way I can say that soccer, basketball and volleyball (and other games which involve moving a ball around and trying to position it in certain spots for points for your team) are actually one and the same game.<br /><br />Therefore I can safely say that each raid encounter is actually a different mini-game, despite that all of them consist of a set of common elements.Janahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01732571182862802229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-8673754431212601782010-04-12T12:23:41.056+02:002010-04-12T12:23:41.056+02:00@Gevlon: @Foo : you missed the point. If the gated...@Gevlon: <i>@Foo : you missed the point. If the gated progression is WITHIN servers, than the guy in stage one feels bad when he inspects a guy in stage 3.</i><br /><br />I didn't miss the point. In my opinion your proposition in this post is missing the reason that the majority of players are in the game. I think the reasons behind <a href="http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2009/05/gamers-hate-gamers.html" rel="nofollow">Gamers Hate Gamers</a> and <a href="http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2010/02/ding.html" rel="nofollow">Ding</a> are valid, and stand up better. This is not any personal preference, just an observation of others. In fact I am playing a 'gated' game by personal choice. I am not doing the ICC weekly (or any ICC raiding) till I have cleared ToGC. I have stopped doing 5mans. Your proposal would actually benefit my preferred playstyle.<br /><br />Sectioning WOW by competance will:<br />* Prevent (significant) boosting. i.e. no more lvl 80's escorting deadmines.<br />* Prevent in game advice from helpful 'experienced' players.<br />* Segregate players from their in-game friends.<br /><br />I understand that for some, these are all desirable goals. For those you deem M&S - these are deal breakers and they will leave WOW for another game. The gating was removed because people didn't rise to the challenge by their own competance. Re-instating gating will simply cause these players to go elsewhere.Foohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02444693774790165427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-31064116842515756382010-04-12T11:58:33.846+02:002010-04-12T11:58:33.846+02:00Meh. Blizzard's solution to this throughout Wo...Meh. Blizzard's solution to this throughout WotLK was at first just splitting content along the 10/25 line (remember not long ago when heroic naxx actually just meant naxx25?), but that was not enough for the social brain, that needed further splitting into hard and normal (of course not easy, that would be preposterous!) modes. If you look even further back to TBC, that was what heroic dungeons were about - almost the same dungeon but HARDER - the required actual awareness of your surroundings, which mob to tank which mob to cc when to spam heal the tank and when to heal the whole group etc. <br />Perhaps the TBC heroics were TOO EASY, as they were accessible to SOME socials so they all wanted in on it, first demanding lower requirement (reputation = running normal mode enough times) to get in (in wotlk blizzard placed no requirement) and then applied that same "logic" to the raid content. <br /><br />Out of this came the good part of the wotlk changes - the aforementioned 10/25 and easy/hard modes of same raids. Everyone can now see all content.<br />Unfortunately, this came at a greater cost. For one there is less actual content, as blizzard is selling these "modes" as separate content - can it be that I was the only one to flinch when the next big raid after Ulduar was one circular room where huge pinatas came for you to beat the purple candy out of? When all the new content of that patch was 6 diffrent versions of that room + basement?<br />Perhaps the new "fun" dailies to be grinded distracted everyone? And hey, after killing the lord of magic, kel'thuzad, and an old god, you can face not one jormungar, but two!<br />The second price to be paid was the watering down of the heroic 5-mans. Instead of the interesting dungeons where every pack of mobs feels like a boss (you need diffrent strategy for almost every pull), clever design of boss mechanics and reasonable prerequisites for participation (the key could only be obtained once you ran that particular dungeon enough times), you have basically a pull-as-many-as-you-can-and-aoe fest, where even old mechanics become obsolete (not standing in the fire has no meaning if the fire won't kill you), and new ones were first easy and then obsolete with the improvement of gear on a global level. To add insult to injury, blizzard re-used (perhaps I should stay mutated beyond recognition) an old TBC strategy of updating gear attainable from heroics by means of badges - but now instead of getting gear COMPARABLE to that from raid content by PLAYING the game and having fun while doing it, you grind the aoe fest again and again and again. For someone like me (I have A LOT of alts), this is akin to grafting skin from your face to fix a burn on your ass.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com