tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post6093661624552506285..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: Cataclysm heroics can be trivialized!Gevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-74621735939320698542010-12-15T19:19:09.149+01:002010-12-15T19:19:09.149+01:00@rashnu
"My toughts about new heroics:
Trash...@rashnu<br /><br />"My toughts about new heroics:<br />Trash fights are way more difficult than the boss fights."<br /><br />This is a great change to dungeon mechanics. You now have to <i>earn</i> your way to the loot pinata by fighting down the halls.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-65990280250541184172010-12-15T05:10:07.650+01:002010-12-15T05:10:07.650+01:00Id have to agree as a healer i feel immense pressu...Id have to agree as a healer i feel immense pressure in H's at the moment, and whats worse is you always get the blame, im not sure what its like as other classes but as a druid i can have 3 stacks of lifebloom, rejuvination, WG and be spaming moslty healing touch on the tank sometimes and only just keeping the tank up while other people are taking damage so i use one GC on one other person and the tank dies, guess who gets the blame for that? Ive decided my gear must not be good enough if i am doing everything i can and still manage to let a dps die every few trash pulls.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-91427521625860498312010-12-14T19:20:07.187+01:002010-12-14T19:20:07.187+01:00I'm afraid, Gnome of Zurich and others, that y...I'm afraid, Gnome of Zurich and others, that your memories are playing tricks on you. There were gear requirements right from the start of Dungeon Finder. See the original patch notes: http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_3.3.0<br /><br />As is still the case today, not <i>all</i> dungeons had gear requirements.Dàchénghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994982502333811797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-16924816364044084312010-12-14T16:32:29.388+01:002010-12-14T16:32:29.388+01:00I agree with boss selection named here what people...I agree with boss selection named here what people find hard: <br />- 3rd boss in brc "kite through the fire", it's enough to someone to kill an add in a wrong spot and moment for the boss to get too many stacks and overwhelm you <br />- Ripsnarl in deadmines, needs dps really on their toes since adds gain HP in time, if they aren't picked asap, we had our caster dps run oom <br />- stonecore first boss, maybe you have uber pc but I can't the hell see where are safe spots from the boss' burrow, and you get one shot if you get caught <br /><br />We also found Draga in Grim Batol pretty annoying in the dragon phase. <br /><br />Haven't done VP or Lost City yet, I heard Siamat is pretty annoying too but didn't check yet. <br /><br />And yeah, the graphic issues, Lady Nazja-something in Throne of the Tides, we had 2 melees, so the geyser was often under the boss in melee, and try to see light blue circle under the huge boss, on blue floor with druid healer putting light green circles on top of that. We felt like morons failing to the geyser but I really hate what they did with druid and priest green / white healing circles obscuring bad stuff underneath.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-87533139861631059862010-12-14T16:31:04.183+01:002010-12-14T16:31:04.183+01:00To the guy who laughed about season 9 not starting...To the guy who laughed about season 9 not starting yet: so what, Argaloth boss is still there in Tol Barad keep, we killed him before season 9 start, the only problem was actually getting that TB for our faction since the opposite one outnumbers our twice. He dropped 2 pieces of new pvp tier, even if you can't buy these yet for honour. We sharded one (as we didn't have that class), so now pvp gear is disenchantable. <br /><br />We had 8 guild members, 2 pugs, the boss is pretty easy tactics-wise like old VOA bosses, he's a dps race boss for now when people run around in blues, healer mana is limited and damage dealers don't do insane dps yet. I predict once people get decked in gear he'll become like old VOA, go in, collect loot. <br /><br />About the "gearscore" needed for heroics, yes, when we needed a pug healer etc. people used to cheat and buy rings from Therazane rep. etc. to pass the limit. However, you know, you can always do it the old school way, fly to the instance / use summon stone and walk through the door. I don't think there's any gear limit on that. <br /><br />Note to enchanters, wait with sharding high level crap before you pass HC requirements in LFG, it's really annoying when you drop below because you sharded some lousy useless quest reward.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-63193886168215454602010-12-14T11:33:10.890+01:002010-12-14T11:33:10.890+01:00It's not a great idea though is it? Why do you...It's not a great idea though is it? Why do you want to use a method which further seeks to abstract any sense of responsibility from the DPS?<br /><br />If you want the "M&S" to get better, to achieve any sense of self awareness or accountability why provide a mechanism that prevents this?<br /><br />Surely the thinking, in order to be constructive, should be along the lines of what could be done in order to not have the DPS given an easy ride?<br /><br />What this method does is provide a kind of palliative care, addressing only the symptoms and not the underlying cause.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-61938349148956995042010-12-14T06:08:51.594+01:002010-12-14T06:08:51.594+01:00Gevlon,
This really is a great idea.
In one way ...Gevlon,<br /><br />This really is a great idea.<br /><br />In one way all the idea does is move content one level easier for generic dps and tank pugs. By coming up with this you have in essence made 4.0 content as puggable as when 4.1 gear comes out. (I myself was going to wait until either the "oh crap we need to buff heals" 4.0.5 or 4.1 before getting into healing much.)<br /><br />I will certainly give this a try.<br /><br />Oh by the way, to all those "an extra healer won't help" crowd.<br />YES this will! All you need to realize is the number of times groups wipe due to the following.<br /><br />--2+ toons taking damage<br />--Tank getting a crit, needs health recovery fast<br />--Heals getting behind damage curve on tank<br />---Heals needs to "twitch button" tank save like pally shield.<br /><br />ALL of these would be greatly helped by another set of healy eyes and hands.Angry Gamernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-48056315613587554232010-12-14T04:05:32.206+01:002010-12-14T04:05:32.206+01:00Because the damage dealer to healer ratio is not b...Because the damage dealer to healer ratio is not balanced (1/3), you will always gain more than you lose with a healer instead of a damage dealing class. Especially since a significant part of the damage is going to be dealt by the tank, the ratio could even be considered 1/4.<br />Since that is also true for raids, bringing an additional healer will always be an option in every fight with low damage requirements.<br />This leaves us with the dilemma, that all the content will be out-geared very soon. Just imagine a healer having double the amount of Mana than the healer has now, that will give a similar effect as having two healers. My Mana increased from ~60k to ~90k with doing a handful of heroics, so it's save to say that as soon as the second raid tier is reached (and epic gear will be available for Justice Points), the heroic content will be trivialized to nothingness. With some heroic gear, we already run through instances like Vortex Pinnacle without any crowd control.<br /><br />And its not even necessary to have a damage dealer switch to his damage dealing spec. All the classes with healing specs and enough intelligence can sub as a full healer for a short time or a difficult boss phase. Thats all thanks to the three "base" healing spells (fast, but expensive, big and cheap heal). Even with only those three, they can heal the same as any normal healer, just with the price of having a slightly lower efficiency.<br /><br />But instead of pointing that out, I'd like to shift the focus on an other observation I've made in cataclysm heroics so far.<br />The biggest problem I have with the current system is the utility that different classes provide. For example, a Mage will trivialize the more difficult heroics like Grim'Batol, Blackrock Caverns and the Stonecore as he has slows, freezes to easily take care of the adds. And he has good crowd control as well as heroism.<br />Another overpowered class is the shadow priest, not only, because he can easily switch the help with healing, but because he can either shackle, fear or most importantly mind control mobs. With a mind-control pull, the trash is decimated by one mob, before any player has to enter combat. And if one takes control of a healer, ~200k heals can be spammed for the hole fight - and the priest is regenerating his own Mana during that time.<br /><br />That results in a situation where the group setup is a lot more important than player skill, and it continues the Wrath philosophy where "ranged > melee". Or who went Lich King without any paladin healer? Probably close to nobody.<br />As long as the difficulty of the encounters continue to depend on the group setup as strong as now, I don't think, that Blizzard have reached their goal of creating a hard, but doable content.akehirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12713016017391256691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-6531135795547321682010-12-14T00:52:46.619+01:002010-12-14T00:52:46.619+01:00"So if you want some easy (granted, bit slow)..."So if you want some easy (granted, bit slow) heroics, form a pre-made party that has the two necessary ingredients: the tank, the DD-healer, and a good DD who can kill the boss before everyone fall asleep."<br /><br />So basically, you need a good tank, a good healer (with DD offspec), and a good DD (DPS). If you have those elements already, then you wouldn't be wiping in the first instance, because you'd work as a team of 3 (with only tank and DPS providing the damage, no different to your scenario assuming that the extra M&S will be near worthless in both cases). Healer can easily solo heal tank and good DPS.<br /><br />Essentially, today's post says "have a good team and heroics will be easy". That's not news. And as others have pointed out, you've picked the easiest heroic so far, from what I've heard.Squishalothttp://www.wowhead.com/user=Squishalotnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-58530116777088601182010-12-14T00:35:47.650+01:002010-12-14T00:35:47.650+01:00I can tell you, that you are not completly wrong: ...I can tell you, that you are not completly wrong: I am in a semi-hardcore guild. I took one week of and went nerd-enrage. Lvl 85 on Tuesday, ~14:00. Now you just rush into heroics. Today first raid. Killed 3 bosses, got the fourth to 8%. PvP down easily.<br />But what I CAN tell you: You don't faceroll those encounters with three healers. Those are needed at our kind of gear (I am at around 348-389 and thats what I am wearing).<br />Now you can do it with two, if gear is better. But with heroics gear you will make your life very hard with two healers.<br />The problem is as follows: You take two healer, they need the same mana as three need to get the group topped, but distributed among two instead of three.<br />Now while this is obvious, it gets worse: You have some nice Healing per Point of Mana and some bad (or at least less efficient). Take Wild Growth. Its really nice, but it's got a cooldown it doesn't hit everyone who took damage. So the problem comes down to the group dying faster than WG coming off cooldown. Using Rejuvenation additionally (and perhaps even more spells) is less efficient thus even more mana is burned. So even if two good healers had the mana pool of three not so good, you still would fail due to higher mana consumption.<br />Nonetheless, your statement is true about doing heroics. Those raids that are active are not possible for the average random group, but of the three bosses we nuked, we didn't see enrage once (suppose they didn't get one), it was all healers mana. Last boss we did hit the Enrage Timer, so this is a dps race. And keep in mind: There are less obvious mechanics that fail on dps, like not killing adds fast enough (which 3 of 4 encounters required). But this maybe the fault of the healer (he could have healed through that! ;-) )<br />Those are some considerations you may make to your assumptions, though you are correct in your conclusions.Najtroknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-26789062316759327042010-12-13T20:58:24.448+01:002010-12-13T20:58:24.448+01:00I didn't notice the gear requirement for heroi...I didn't notice the gear requirement for heroics when it was first introduced even though I leveled a character for the undergeared project right afterwards. <br /><br />Because it was an undergeared guy, I didn't give him any epics before queueing up in heroics, and I used the queue to do dungeons to get my best in slot blues, so I was using it from fairly early on. I did do some gear prep beforehand, since I was playing a tank and had to be uncrittable, but uncrittable and 25k hp were the only things I worried about and once I had them, the tool accepted me no problem even though my gear avg ilvl was probably <187, which is the line that the tools appears to be taking now for WotLK heroics.<br /><br />Which is fairly ridiculous really -- all the early ones are doable greens now that all tanks get uncrittable without gear. most of the 3.0 heroics are a total faceroll if you have queueable gear.<br /><br />I don't like the level chosen for gear requirements at all. One good undergeared demonstration would probably be to clear a bunch of wrath heroics with a 2 or 3 player group where all players are 80 and have item level lower than LFD will let them in.The Gnome of Zurichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03203965173625552516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-21295833959561223982010-12-13T20:56:26.780+01:002010-12-13T20:56:26.780+01:00Really when it comes down to it all this is saying...Really when it comes down to it all this is saying is that if you have an extra heals that the dps requirement on this is actually rather low.<br /><br />For the most part wipes have only been happening because the healers go OOM because people are taking to much damage or you get 2 groups of mobs. <br /><br />What the real benefit of having 2 healers would be is that you can have your tank aggro everything and the dps just aoe since you will be able to out heal the damage the tank will be taking on the pull.<br /><br />Where this would fail would be on a pull where the mobs are capable of outhealing your dps if you only have 2. Gear would fix this problem and so far i haven't encounter anything where you couldn't CC a healer or such.Kelindrianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-38659392855146123722010-12-13T17:59:12.342+01:002010-12-13T17:59:12.342+01:00Oh this is how I used to do heroics in TBC at the ...Oh this is how I used to do heroics in TBC at the beginning. When we didnt have that great gear 2 mages 2 healers and 1 tank. We also did magisters terrace that way. It worked just took longer to kill trash.CKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02598150286811097064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-87713907880622123162010-12-13T16:17:19.827+01:002010-12-13T16:17:19.827+01:00@riptor
Of course heroics will be easier with hig...@riptor<br /><br />Of course heroics will be easier with higher gear score. The problem with WotLK was that blizzard's token and daily system forced players who out-geared the dungeons to keep doing them. It's ridiculous to be doing dungeons geared for ilevel 187 blues to be rewarding ilevel 264 epics. Of course they'll be face rolled.<br /><br />Now with the weekly point caps, most geared players will be getting their points from raiding instead. Therefore more people in dungeons will be at the appropriate gear level. So we'll be running the dungeons to get ready for raids, not for grinding points/badges.thehampsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12333883891642767644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-29610557717895362192010-12-13T15:49:58.603+01:002010-12-13T15:49:58.603+01:00I'm afraid you're way off your target this...I'm afraid you're way off your target this time, Gevlon.<br /><br />It's one week after Cata release. The 'M&S' you're referring to actually managed to hit 85 in a timely fashion while getting the mere minimum of gear in six days.<br /><br />Wait another two weeks until the LFD becomes swamped with people who currently 'need' hand-holding in order to survive the 'unbearably difficult' quests...<br /><br />To be honest, LFD has been perfectly fine thus far with more or less everyone doing something stupid stating their own idiocy by correctly identifying the mistake and not repeating it next try.Sten Düringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06676541059143438525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-68387425098929836382010-12-13T15:37:35.498+01:002010-12-13T15:37:35.498+01:00@daniel
Let me guess, you're DPS right? As g...@daniel<br /><br />Let me guess, you're DPS right? As gevlon already mentioned, heroics are designed to be easy mode for you.<br /><br />Althought dps never really noticed all that much of a difference in TBC heroics either, unless they pulled aggro.thehampsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12333883891642767644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-54110661614650181652010-12-13T15:19:31.143+01:002010-12-13T15:19:31.143+01:00"Concerning Blizzard's gear-score require..."Concerning Blizzard's gear-score requirement for heroics, it has been there ever since Dungeon Finder was introduced, a year ago. You probably didn't realize this because you already had the gear for heroics at that point. As a brand new level 80, I didn't have gear then, and so noticed the requirement immediately."<br /><br />no, that's definitely not true. when it came out, i queued with a lvl 77 warlock for the argentum 5man and was almost half epic just from this immediately after i dinged.<br />then came changes in the level where you could join and after that increasing demands on the equipment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-76157237017746766262010-12-13T14:42:53.810+01:002010-12-13T14:42:53.810+01:00Mr Goblin
I find your ideas intriguing and would ...Mr Goblin<br /><br />I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter! (Doh I'm already here)<br /><br />We have actually done something similar for our early heroics except just using a Ele Shammy and Resto Druid - Shammy does some DPS and some healing. <br /><br />As someone mentioned "That, and heroics were never meant to stop decent players." which is the norm for most players that read your blog (or blogs on WoW in general).<br /><br />One final point. You could think of your method of 2 healers as a form of CC. You are just making the damage taken by the tank easier to handle, which is exactly what a good CC will do.Mr Elnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-72513222352219636902010-12-13T14:11:04.024+01:002010-12-13T14:11:04.024+01:00VP is very easy. First boss in SC is even easier, ...VP is very easy. First boss in SC is even easier, how did you wipe to red on that? :)<br />Also, DDs finally DO have responsiblity, because it's now impossible to heal stupid. Yeah sure, your double heal setup may work on easier bosses, but that's it. It doesn't mean that DDs don't have it harder. It just means you can still carry their sorry asses.Péter Zoltánhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01703829981771783158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-86486253531965979052010-12-13T13:12:35.696+01:002010-12-13T13:12:35.696+01:00Concerning Blizzard's gear-score requirement f...Concerning Blizzard's gear-score requirement for heroics, it has been there ever since Dungeon Finder was introduced, a year ago. You probably didn't realize this because you already had the gear for heroics at that point. As a brand new level 80, I didn't have gear then, and so noticed the requirement immediately.Dàchénghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994982502333811797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-25998281894290530222010-12-13T12:45:36.783+01:002010-12-13T12:45:36.783+01:00"Worst M&S I've seen so far was a Ran..."Worst M&S I've seen so far was a Random PuG which wiped once on the first boss in HoO, and figured 'We can't do this with our gear' and decided to quit. So I guess the real M&S will stop doing heroics until they get carried through them anyway."<br /><br />This is what used to happen in Burning Crusade when heroics were harder. If everyone wasn't in full epics, that was generally the excuse for failing. "We don't have enough gear". Even though you're supposed to be able to run them in non-heroic blues.The Gnome of Zurichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03203965173625552516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-62005994274738144262010-12-13T12:40:01.568+01:002010-12-13T12:40:01.568+01:00I picked no heroic, simply queued for a random. I ...I picked no heroic, simply queued for a random. I explicitly told that some boss fights has DPS responsibilities. I simply said that ALL trashpacks and MANY bosses can be trivialized by using 2 healers, and assumed that the whole "hard cataclysm" idea is therefore broken as it allows bad players brute-force SEVERAL heroics. They can simply leave and reform if random gives them one of the non-brute forcable.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-51258837822875244402010-12-13T12:14:58.350+01:002010-12-13T12:14:58.350+01:00No offense but as others have said you picked a pr...No offense but as others have said you picked a pretty easy heroic. Their are alot of bosses which im pretty sure would be close to impossible with 2 healers.<br /><br />These spring to mind:<br />-Admiral Ripsnarl in Deadmines<br />-The boss with the portals in halls of orgination<br />-The boss with the spores in halls of orgination<br /><br />You may well be able to pull this off but if you are going to take a full team minus a healer as you suggest then id assume your dps is good enough to make the healers job much easier without resorting to slowing the dungeon that much.<br /><br />You seem to be coming up with a way to enable the rest of your damage dealers to get away with playing badly. Nowadays healing is as hard as dps make it good dps can avoid most damage and mitigate more with interrupts cc and stuns bad ones continue to play like WotLK and spam their rotation whilst wanking over the damage meters.masithhttp://danielhartley1982@live.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-39827365627703155942010-12-13T11:29:20.047+01:002010-12-13T11:29:20.047+01:00Considering that 80% of damage is completely avoid...Considering that 80% of damage is completely avoidable, I haven't actually had THAT much of a problem with M&S in my runs. All it took was me to take a strong raid-style leadership role, mark mobs, and tell them what damage is avoidable. With the exception of Grim Batol, this has made heroics, well, not faceroll, but a good point between easy and challenging.<br /><br />Honestly though, Vortex Pinnacle? It's one of the easiest heroics, along with Throne of Tides and Deadmines. I imagine your strategy will work in Grim Batol, except for the last boss which has strict DPS requirements, but I'll be interested to see how that goes.<br /><br />That, and heroics were never meant to stop decent players. A modicum of skill will get you through them fine. It's the M&S that it stops, and so far kicking mechanics work quite well (or a few times they dropped of their own volition after blowing up the group too many times).Talarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17684944568000522986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-77872546704325795732010-12-13T11:29:17.314+01:002010-12-13T11:29:17.314+01:00"We did the tol barad boss yesterday and even..."We did the tol barad boss yesterday and even with people in greens there were few seconds left on the enrage timer."<br />Interesting, couldn´t remember season 9 started yet...<br /><br />...The new dungeons are as hard as the players can move, involving Tank DPS and Healer. You can evade massive group damage just by being in the right spot. Next thing is interrupting (Grim batol add-spawning casters). And of course you can CC.<br /><br />Since I switched from Heal to Tank I´m having a very good time on my paladin. No problms in points as aggro or incoming damage. My favorite healer has some issues with mana-management when it comes to group damage, what is almost always avoidable.<br /><br />I haven´t made any random HC runs (just guild internal) just did some NH rund with the tool, what fed me up until I can outgear HC´s.<br /><br />I hope I can return to the PuG in the next weeks, I just joined a new Guild with some of my favorite companions and gear up. That´ll be done next wekend I hope.Ðesolatenoreply@blogger.com