tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post4734464028275954056..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: The revenge of the zombie marshmallowsGevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-60436739552122021842010-03-30T20:41:45.751+02:002010-03-30T20:41:45.751+02:00For a truly intelligent person to continue partici...For a truly intelligent person to continue participating in the undergeared project would mean contributing to the community by providing further evidence of the small amount of preparation time that is needed to see most content, but this would have little personal benefit for someone who already knows for certain that this is possible (the previous successes of the project serving as examples).<br /><br />If the project was composed of many blue-geared players on the same server all from different guilds, it would have more chance of success. With the constraint of not having scheduling constraints, there is too much variance in the expected number of raiders online and too few goals that don't require a full raid group for enough people to log in enough to consistently have a weekly raid. Looks like the threat of disbanding worked tho :pTaemojitsuhttp://daughterofankh.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-76635297319979547922010-03-27T17:48:15.199+01:002010-03-27T17:48:15.199+01:00From my professional experience I found that leade...From my professional experience I found that leadership has very much to do with mollycoddling the underperformers, which I'd assume is very much against Gevlon's beliefs. But to use Gevlon's own terminology, underperformers are morons & slackers. Now assume you weeded out the morons by only hiring those with a bit of brain, then the underperformers are mostly the slackers. Or in management speak the "undermotivated". Motivating people to perform better is the main activity of a leader, and requires some empathy into what bugs them, and soothing words to calm them. Somehow I can't see Gevlon doing that.Toboldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04354082945218389596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-51716857743261221762010-03-27T13:34:27.251+01:002010-03-27T13:34:27.251+01:00If you bring 10 new members to the US project that...If you bring 10 new members to the US project that are close to 80 or 80, it won't be dead.<br /><br />There are around 10 of us that log on regularly, 3-4 who are ready to roll.<br /><br />I haven't been pushing guild runs that hard because I was giving people time to level, and it did take time.The Gnome of Zurichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03203965173625552516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-59745186395296261082010-03-26T13:30:58.284+01:002010-03-26T13:30:58.284+01:00@Dacheng: I've hesitated some time to allow yo...@Dacheng: I've hesitated some time to allow your comment or consider it to trolling. Since the blogger interface does not allow personal answers (that only you see) and I think you really believe this nonsense, I rather allow to answer it. If you check all posts, you'll see that the activity was very sparse from the start.<br /><br />The project started at Dec 14<br />The first action, ICC5 normal happened on Jan 18<br />- one week nothing -<br />ICC5 HC Feb 1<br />- two weeks nothin -<br />Naxx 10 on Feb 22<br />Sarth/Maly 10 Mar 1<br />- one week nothing -<br />A seriously undermanned raid Mar 15 when the post you mentioned was made.<br />- one week nothing -<br />- the current week -<br /><br />Most of the missing weeks were before the mentioned post.<br /><br />Creating logs and posting on the guild site is common practice in ALL guilds that downed anything beyond Noth the Plaguebringer. While usually the link is not available for the public, it's also not hidden and anyone bothers to search can find it.<br /><br />Raiders (as opposed to socials) see it a mean to be better.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-50807859026164740752010-03-26T13:12:22.996+01:002010-03-26T13:12:22.996+01:00This post is what caused Undergeared members to st...This post is what caused Undergeared members to stop turning up:<br />http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2010/03/1000g-and-more-help.html<br /><br />Once you started to criticize your team instead of praising them, you killed this project. It's bad enough posting recount numbers in raid chat; but posting it on a public forum is incredible. Now all raiders in Undergeared know that their slightest mistake may cause them to be the subject of public criticism on this blog, even if that mistake is simply having non-optimum gear (that's why everybody is after BiS; for fear of you criticizing them for anything less). <br /><br />Blaming the failure of the Undergeared guild on your own guild members (for being unable to defer gratification) is wishful thinking on your part. I think Tobold is right to say the problem is leadership. <br /><br />Your style, Gevlon, is to knock people down (remember your <a href="http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2009/07/its-not-my-faliure.html" rel="nofollow">battleground</a> posts?) and ridicule them for not doing what you think they should do. A more experienced leader would be building team members up by encouraging them for what they are doing well.<br /><br />The battleground posts gave us the clear indication that you excel as a loner, and do not shine at roles that call for social interaction (to the point where you even use the word "social" as a criticism), and the failure of undergeared has proven it. The fact is that humanity is social, and that's what has made us succeed as a species. <br /><br />Reread especially Ten's comments in http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2009/07/sitah-and-helcsi.html to see what makes a real leader.Dàchénghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994982502333811797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-84808601392550053402010-03-26T07:09:49.512+01:002010-03-26T07:09:49.512+01:00"The point was to see if a guild could clear ...<i>"The point was to see if a guild could clear through kt, yogg, anub and arthas in blues without the commitment and leadership and social aspect of a normal raiding guild. I think they got KT and then things stopped right?"</i><br />That would essentially be "Can a pug group clear ICC in blue gears?", a question which I think everyone would agree on the answer (hint :"No"). A guild without commitment, leadership or socia aspect isn't a guild.Jeanienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-35812333193240312012010-03-26T03:33:27.820+01:002010-03-26T03:33:27.820+01:00@ gevlon:
I think people missed the point of the ...@ gevlon:<br /><br />I think people missed the point of the undergeared experiment, and an eperiment it was.<br /><br />The point was to see if a guild could clear through kt, yogg, anub and arthas in blues without the commitment and leadership and social aspect of a normal raiding guild. I think they got KT and then things stopped right?<br /><br />Regardless, an experiment cannot fail, because all results are data, and collecting data is the goal of an experiment. Anything else is agenda-driven research.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348323238268699668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-34535832694922275022010-03-26T02:28:09.297+01:002010-03-26T02:28:09.297+01:00"Guild sets new low upper bound for blaming f..."Guild sets new low upper bound for blaming failure on gear." It made a nice headline me. It was entertaining to see something embarrassing demonstrated with the necessary rigour.<br /><br />When you talked about the experiment originally, it seemed to be your search for an endgame that involved spending a lot of money. This already seems to be somewhat against the grain.<br /><br />A lot of guilds show similar problems. Most of Blizzard's changes have been supportive of social guilds: easier access to gear and consumables and reassurances that the stoic dedication of raiding as a full-time job isn't the only (or even best) way to play.<br /><br />Even if it's just a bandaid, Blizzard's assistance doesn't seem very aligned with your experiment. Maybe your guild is in worse shape than other guilds because you're not in a position to benefit from their aid.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04357417019844476884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-28960845463563178782010-03-26T00:33:45.031+01:002010-03-26T00:33:45.031+01:00But doesn't this project explore the issues of...But doesn't this project explore the issues of organizing people far more than anything about moving out of fire skills? Especially unpaid volunteers doing something against the typical gameplay for no other reason than a social experiment? Blizzard put numbers like 232 and 264 on their pixels to motivate and focus players; you don't have to like the game design decision, but it is WoW.<br /><br />Say the success of this project saved Western Civilization and earned you a 10 million Euro bonus; failure meant you had to work for and with unionized government workers for the rest of your life. You would have spent much time contacting people on an ongoing basis, making sure they understood the goals/mission statement, addressing their issues, etc. standard management stuff. If your bonus were 100m, you might even have provided levelers the positive reinforcement of a ding. Actually, you would have hired someone with more of those organizational and leadership skills (e.g. not me) to deal with the process and people. <br /><br />I am sorry to see this not succeed. But I think all you proved is that running a guild to be successful in doing nontrivial stuff is a lot of work and not a casual undertaking. The players can be casual; the guild leadership can not. Perhaps the more casual the members, the less casual (more effort) the management is. Explaining the goal to Ensidia or Vodka is simple; scheduling is easy. Assembling a 10 person casual raid is simple but not easy - recruit 15-25 people who promise they absolutely will show up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-49359016221166802982010-03-25T23:13:42.757+01:002010-03-25T23:13:42.757+01:00Problem for me is to get the gear that's BIS.
...Problem for me is to get the gear that's BIS.<br /><br />To get them, I'm forced to do heroics for hours a day. And then only to see most of them either DE'd infront of my face or lost on greed rolls by people who is either not responding or can't be arsed to hand it over.<br /><br />It's a long, long road to get the gear needed to be advequate enough to heal, especially when most of the stuff I need is cloth..<br /><br />Anyway, this is just another BS explanation as with the rest here.<br /><br />The cost of effort versus the reward is just too low to invest this amount of time to the project.Denethalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08459012900923861801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-32612469730795452202010-03-25T21:44:00.668+01:002010-03-25T21:44:00.668+01:00If you were on the US realms, id have 10 new membe...If you were on the US realms, id have 10 new members for you. the US undgergeared project seems dead too (or never got off the ground)<br /><br />it is the most interesting meta-gaming project i have ever seen. Its a damn shame if it fails!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-64139202384611965202010-03-25T21:30:01.983+01:002010-03-25T21:30:01.983+01:00I think most of you miss the point of this post. I...I think most of you miss the point of this post. It is about a single question: why anyone would not take the last step of a long journey?<br /><br />people started the spend time on their alts for this project. they started to spend gold even. now when everything is in place, why don`t they do the last step? <br /><br />it is like missing an orgasm after some petting. you prepare everything, you buy some nice underwear, some candles, et, etc. you start `doing` it but at the end you say: well, I go watch TV.<br /><br />but I think we cannot realy answer this question. we should ask those rather who reached the `raider` rank and since then they haven`t showed up...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-45069702602214468652010-03-25T21:22:35.017+01:002010-03-25T21:22:35.017+01:00Just a point Gevlon on something you said in your ...Just a point Gevlon on something you said in your comment:<br /><br />In fact, research seems to indicate that anticipation (whether of pain or pleasure) is considerably more punishing or rewarding than what is felt in the event itself.<br /><br />I was reminded of this phenomenon most recently in a CNN story on research finding that planning a vacation creates more happiness than the vacation itself.<br /><br />Perhaps it is different for Goblins, but I don't know why it should be. Anticipation is not a social effect.Kishkegeltnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-35928016422730077832010-03-25T21:05:26.282+01:002010-03-25T21:05:26.282+01:00Does it have to end?
If you choose to abandon the...Does it have to end?<br /><br />If you choose to abandon the project after next saturday, is it nessesary to disband the guild and end the project completely?<br />Why not turn it over to one of the most dedicated raiders who have shown up and shown commitment to the project.<br /><br />The casual part was part of your idea, but it could be possible to lower the standards of what is considered casual.<br />Demanding that raiders show up for one raid a week 3 times a month is not excactly hardcore.<br /><br />I know that the no demands was an important part of the consept for you, but if that's what needs to change, could you give someone else a chance to lead the project with the nessesary changes?<br /><br />Most players in Undergeared are goblins, or half-goblins so the project does have a decent chance without your sponsorship.<br /><br />Just think about it.<br /><br />Anonymous Undergeared memberAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-80461859518381603272010-03-25T20:42:10.814+01:002010-03-25T20:42:10.814+01:00Totally agree w/ lack of leadership issues, as wel...Totally agree w/ lack of leadership issues, as well as little opportunity for guild members to get to know each other, have fun, and develop social connections.<br /><br />YOU set all the rules, days to raid, how to do this/that, don't chat, etc. unilaterally. That's dictating, not leading.<br /><br />But of course, that's your credo. Nobody should need anyone else, nobody should need help from anyone else, useless social endeavors like chatting, cutting up or "e-peening" have no value.<br /><br />Perhaps your lack of social abilities derailed an otherwise brilliant project?<br /><br />Here's a challenge...loosen your grip and allow some more fun and interaction (lol) during raids. Assign some other members to lead. Allow attempts on other nights. Ask your more comitted members for ideas how to get people to show up. Increase your expectations and reward with encouragement.<br /><br />Then give it another month.Bristalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-12171143681061315332010-03-25T20:20:07.164+01:002010-03-25T20:20:07.164+01:00@Kristine Ask-
That's exactly what I was thin...@Kristine Ask-<br /><br />That's exactly what I was thinking. At the point where Gevlon started his ganking guild, all of the Undergeared guild's potential applicants decided that Undergeared would die due to a lack of leadership and never joined.Deathturtle Coilfang-USnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-38188282154948934182010-03-25T20:07:39.455+01:002010-03-25T20:07:39.455+01:00I don't know if Gevlon read my original commen...I don't know if Gevlon read my original comment about challenges in the game where I suggested that running a guild is by far the most challenging thing to do in the game.<br /><br />To run a guild you must:<br />1) Decide what kind of guild you will have<br />2) Decide what conduct is OK and not OK<br />3) Decide the goals of the guild<br />4) Determine appropriate carrot and stick to encourage attendance<br />5) Aggressively recruit<br />6) Be more motivated, do better research, post strats etc than the majority of the guild<br />7) When starting the guild, its best to pick a key position such as main tank or healer.<br />8) Various intangibles such as fostering comraderie, shared sense of purpose, helping each other.<br /><br />Gevlon quite clearly failed in the carrot/stick department and Im going to guess when the pvp thing started, he failed in the motivation as well. He also picked a replaceable class in mage and purposefully killed all comraderie with his 'everyones a goblin dont help each other' attitude. In a blues only raiding, there are no rewards in game at all. There certainly was no punishment for not attending. There was no social pressure to show up as these people arent your friends. They aren't even obligated to even do an enchant for you if you bring the mats.<br /><br />So the failure rests solely at your own feet Gevlon. You fostered an empty shell of a guild that fell apart as most guilds do, due to lack of leadership and proper structuring.Ryan Barkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17831835122741811138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-83925291973952015092010-03-25T19:18:49.689+01:002010-03-25T19:18:49.689+01:00I think people are way over-analyzing this. Most ...I think people are way over-analyzing this. Most people want to use their new toys. People lost some interest after proving they could do well in blues and still not being able to play with their purple toys. It's not a failure, it's just human nature.Yagglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15177750815584983551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-79399237181344943022010-03-25T17:51:40.448+01:002010-03-25T17:51:40.448+01:00At the point where you said that the Undergeared p...At the point where you said that the Undergeared project didn't require time/effort and in such you could start the Ganking project - it was obvious how the Undergeared project would end. <br /><br />Any successful guildleader will tell you that perseverance, consistency and the ability to adapt your strategies is elemental. However, the best ideas in the world won't matter if you are not there. <br /><br />The difference between being in a guild and not being in a guild, is first and foremost leadership. You need to provide it, or they will leave.Kristine Askhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02114404736446380288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-40133005262863584152010-03-25T16:57:27.758+01:002010-03-25T16:57:27.758+01:00I believe at least making a calendar event for you...I believe at least making a calendar event for your potential raids would help a great deal.<br />Some guys even organize pugs this way.Janahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01732571182862802229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-1458864605301954742010-03-25T16:57:27.757+01:002010-03-25T16:57:27.757+01:00I think you ran into the problem quite a few guild...I think you ran into the problem quite a few guilds ( pro and fail) run into, disinterest. <br /><br />I think you're right that you need some kind of achievement to keep people interested, but I think its even simpler than that. You need consistent raiding. <br /><br />The "We'll raid when we can" attitude only works if you have sufficient people that a raid can happen almost every time its scheduled. Miss a week or two in a row and people will get bored and do other things, or leave. <br /><br />I think the nature of your guild, the lack of social "glue" as Fuu put it, accelerated the process. Whereas a normal guild could limp along until raiding picked up again, relying more on the social side to keep everyone interested, Undergeared didn't have that luxury.<br /><br />Of course I don't have an EU account so I don't know anything first hand, but it seems reasonable to me. <br /><br />Hope things pick up.Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05057210729779103508noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-70519430220442099762010-03-25T16:54:59.870+01:002010-03-25T16:54:59.870+01:00"I will only be able to join in on the fun on..."I will only be able to join in on the fun once my shaman has passed the remaining 29 levels, but why not have a group from Undergeared clear Glory of the Raider? Is anyone else interested in this?"<br /><br />I meant Glory of the Hero (as can be inferred from the rest of my comment), but Glory of the Raider is also a decent goal.ardoRichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11034320697611212733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-13777378016714648222010-03-25T16:31:55.814+01:002010-03-25T16:31:55.814+01:00I think what Nils said is about right.
I once mad...I think what Nils said is about right.<br /><br />I once made a level 29 Warrior twink, pre-TBC. Spent ages gearing him up pretty much perfectly in terms of enchants and items. Did BGs with him twice, and then abandoned him.<br /><br />I think maybe what you ended up with were not people focussed on doing blue geared raiding. You ended up with a load of people making the perfect level 80 blue-geared twink.<br /><br />I don't believe this is neccesarily "stupid", as Gevlon suggests. One thing that repeatedly comes up in this blog is the fine line between what is a worthwhile activity, and what is something a M&S would do. What this fails to realise is most people play the game for fun (or in economic terms they "derive utility" from it). Some things I enjoy in the game - eg. hard mode raiding, dominating markets in the AH - would probably pass this blog's definition of useful and productive. Equally I also like to do "M&S" things like achievements.<br /><br />This is because for me - and I suspect most people - we don't play the game to be productive, or improve ourselves as human beings we do it to have fun.<br /><br />Whilst creating a perfectly blue-geared level 80 you never actually raid with is irrational and inefficient, it can still be fun (much like making my twink was much more fun than playing him turned out to be). Even good, rational players will likely do a lot of irrational things, because hey, its just a game. Do whatever gets those pleasure centre neurons firing.<br /><br />I suspect thats why so many dropped out when they did - they may never have been totally committed anyway. But whilst they still had levelling and perfecting their gear to work on, they had something else to amuse themselves with.Mmootimusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-10873673629555869072010-03-25T16:27:08.312+01:002010-03-25T16:27:08.312+01:00It's sad, I was thinking this could work.
You...It's sad, I was thinking this could work.<br /><br />You may want to try and change the raid night to 'any night'. If someone wants to start a raid and clear naxx, let them. Or maybe they want to knock off a few bosses in Ulduar.<br />Having a specific raid night and time for a casual guild is a bit odd. If it's truly casual, let the raids happen whenever.<br /><br />I can see myself getting a little upset that after grinding up to 80 and gearing up in bis blues (which actually is harder than getting great epics - since blues are from heroics and you can only run them once a day. epic gear can come from badges), I can only use the toon once a week.<br /><br />You were really looking for hardcore players, who are so hardcore that they can either squeeze in another night of raiding, or not show up for their real guild.<br /><br />Casuals will want to play on their time, not on yours. So IMHO, relax the saturday raid-night, or just offer hard-core guild gold to prove that clearing icc is possible in blues, given you have skill.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-13141804672625697692010-03-25T15:43:16.601+01:002010-03-25T15:43:16.601+01:00I responded on my blog after I realized that I was...I responded on my blog after I realized that I was typing too much for a comment. It was hastily written, and I'm sure you will tear it to pieces because of this, but...sticks and stones and all that.<br /><br />(click my name)Davehttp://www.technicallydeft.comnoreply@blogger.com