tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post4544905447245537743..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: Skipping combatGevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-67452267275338596632012-03-27T10:28:36.041+02:002012-03-27T10:28:36.041+02:00Amazing how many people want to proscribe how othe...Amazing how many people want to proscribe how other people play. I know it's great to beat a RPG on hard but if skipping combat is anathema then what about "narrative" mode or "easy" or even "medium"? I honestly couldn't care less how someone else completes their single-player game. It's like monstering someone because they skim read or fast-forward through the opening credits. All that Hepler was talking about was that twitch gamers shouldn't be the only focus for developers. An additional mode skipping combat seems entirely reasonable to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-61886461552448637732012-03-01T08:28:58.197+01:002012-03-01T08:28:58.197+01:00All videogameplay, whether it relates to combat or...All videogameplay, whether it relates to combat or conversations, can be represented as a series of three repeating steps: the player decides to make a <i>choice</i>, attempts to <i>implement</i> said choice by interacting with the game's interface, and receives <i>feedback</i> from the game based on what her choice was and whether she managed to implement it successfully.<br /><br />When I use spacebar to skip NPC speeches halfway through in SWToR, ME2 or DA2, what I'm really skipping is immediate <b>feedback</b>. I still get to make and implement my choices, trivial as they may be (picking one response out of 2 or 3 and clicking on it isn't exactly hard - especially in Mass Effect 1 and 2, where the game always sides with Shepherd no matter what) and I still get to live with their long-term consequences in regards to plot.<br /><br />Therefore, the proper equivalent of skipping such feedback in combat would not be the fast-forward button or the trivialization of difficulty - it would be the option to turn off flashy spell effects, over-the-top death animations, voice acting for battle cries and floating combat text.<br /><br />(On a semi-related note, Raph Koster's <a href="http://www.raphkoster.com/2012/01/20/narrative-is-not-a-game-mechanic/" rel="nofollow">article</a> from a month ago does a fairly good job at explaining why the modern tendency to skew the 'choice-implementation-feedback' - so evident in Bioware's modern games, among others - towards the latter component is essentially bad game design).Ephemeronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16403198085556121203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-39777485459530640702012-02-29T17:58:56.872+01:002012-02-29T17:58:56.872+01:00The whole argument to me brought me back to girl s...The whole argument to me brought me back to girl sports. We have things called 'chick flicks' for the movies and 'romance novels' for books. In other words there are products that CATER to various consumer groups.<br /><br />The problem with Helper is that she demands that companies change their products and force them to cater to what she wants. Now if there is a market big enough for it companies will do that. But she shouldn't have the right to demand it.<br /><br />I mentioned girls sports. Its fine if they play sports. Go for it. But don't demand to change the rules for the guys sport, or demand to play the game with the guys and be given special rights or capabilities (rules) to make it easier for you.Goodmongohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10116895654322387056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-60097511282481175702012-02-29T15:10:06.102+01:002012-02-29T15:10:06.102+01:00@Trektar
Indeed it will. However, ME3 isn't r...@Trektar<br /><br />Indeed it will. However, ME3 isn't released yet, and can't tell how well it will be pulled off.<br /><br />However, judging from the demo, which I've played and replayed extensively, Insanity(that is, highest difficulty) is quite unforgiving and difficult. <br /><br />The AI seems a lot better scripted than in ME2. (Though, personally, I would be a lot more impressed if Valve didn't come up with a workable AI for cover-based 'soldier' AI...in Half-Life. That's the game from 1997, 15 bloody years ago. Funny.)<br /><br />I'll make my final judgement on combat after I play it. Fortunately, it seems that miss Helper has no pull within the game-play department.<br /><br />That leaves the story. We'll see that back then, but I swear, if I see one more idiotic false dichotomy, or whiny, emo, brooding companions (like those in DA2, the only ones who were refreshing and likeable ones were Varric and Snarky! Hawke.), then I'm sorry. There's only so much bad writing I can tolerate, before I snap.Andruhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12265338942372933846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-70200203039418375962012-02-29T14:27:52.159+01:002012-02-29T14:27:52.159+01:00Didn't Mass Effect 3 try to implement a "...Didn't Mass Effect 3 try to implement a "story mode", a "battle mode" and a "normal mode" with both fighting and story?<br /><br />I doubt that such a button has a future in a PvP game. If you don't like playing PvP, you don't play PvP. If you want to beat players in PvP without effort, you start cheating (Counterstrike: Aimbot, Wallhack; Warcraft: Maphack), or start sandbagging (losing on purpose and getting ranked/matched against worse players, even if you don't get an ingame reward for winning like in Starcraft 2).<br /><br />For PvE, why not? But not in WoW, because Blizzard wants the players to fight against quest mobs. It's one of the main parts in the early game and since you pay per month, they aim for a high playtime. In games without a monthly fee I think it's okay. If someone doesn't want to fight a dragon in Skyrim, then he shouldn't need to to play the game.Trektarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-17054003235952116702012-02-29T14:20:19.133+01:002012-02-29T14:20:19.133+01:00in eve you can decide to go totally for a non-comb...in eve you can decide to go totally for a non-combatant career - and i know a handfull of people who do so and enjoy the game.<br />However even being, lets call 'em civilian (or carebears in evespeak), the cannot skip combat. <br /><br />If i look at a game like Wow, where you basically have npc-combat and consentual pvp, you most likely could 'skip' combat in that grind-fest.<br /><br />If i look at eve - no, there is no real safezone in eve for a reason, it is what makes eve eve, and pretty unique for the game. Allowing players to completely opt-out of combat would break the very core of the game.<br />Even if you'd only allow to skip mission-related-combat, you would remove the oppertunity to kill the mission runner, because the time he needs to run his mission is the time a ganker has to prepare his gank.<br />Now for the hardcore-carebear there is still the option to do non-combat missions only (couriers) but even there he will allways have the risk of pvp.<br />and thats a good thing.Peter Petermannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10244762970148885669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-69187089665870865092012-02-29T13:40:56.072+01:002012-02-29T13:40:56.072+01:00I always liked the Total War games because I loved...I always liked the Total War games because I loved the "board" part of it, but I hated the "skirmish" part of it. But then, they implemented the "auto resolve" button, where the game calculated the odds of me winning/losing based in the units fightings.<br />It was much like civilization, only more interesting and less laggy.<br />I would probably love that concept applied to MMOs.Lothildinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13506069263382769785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-48158290675100455472012-02-29T12:42:32.754+01:002012-02-29T12:42:32.754+01:00(Submitted again because it looks like the first o...(Submitted again because it looks like the first one didn't go through correctly.)<br /><br />There's much more to the Hepler situation than simply "sexist idiots being sexist idiots".<br /><br />Firstly Hepler's comments were referring to a single player game. They also betray her lack of understanding of what players want; there is a good reason why players might want to skip dialogue and cutscenes and get back to the action. Players wanting to skip the action are comparatively rare, because in most games this ends up to you effectively watching a film... and films tend to pull this off much better. Most games actually sell themselves based on the action they offer to players, and if you remove combat from the equation then you wouldn't have a game at all.<br /><br />The other issue with Hepler is that she has gone on record (amongst other things of recent...) as stating that she doesn't like playing games. People have reacted very negatively to this remark, and I think there are legitimate reasons for that.<br /><br />In the same way I would expect a script writer to watch TV programs and films, or an author to read published books, I would expect a game developer to play games. It doesn't matter whether they're a coder, a graphics artist, UI guy, writer, whatever. It doesn't matter if they're a 'casual' or 'hardcore' gamer, or whether they're extremely skilled, or someone without much ability. The important point is that they are a consumer of that form of media and they have a decent understanding of that media. Why? Because you need that understanding to be able to produce quality work.<br /><br />From what I can tell, a passion for games is generally a standard requirement across the games industry, so it is worrying when someone like Hepler rises to a position of prominence, in what is generally regarded as a reasonably talented studio whose standards appear to be slipping.<br /><br />With Hepler, it isn't so much what she is personally responsible for - or not - with DA2, but what she represents for Bioware. A badly skilled writer working in the games industry for a medium she doesn't consume or understand, exerting potentially significant creative influence over brands that players had previously enjoyed. That's the real heart of the issue, not moronic internet trolls on a hate campaign.<br /><br />For the record, I don't really have a problem with her belief that combat should be skippable, as long as this doesn't negatively affect the final product. If you want to skip combat, use cheats, mod the game, play on the easiest setting, etc. then as long as this doesn't lead to a worse experience for me, I don't give a damn.Ulsakinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-58864450935544387692012-02-29T12:29:35.380+01:002012-02-29T12:29:35.380+01:00The quotes from the interview (via this post):
&q...The quotes from the interview (via <a href="http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/6605174/" rel="nofollow">this post</a>):<br /><br /><i>"Similarly, I'm really terrible at so many things which most games use incessantly -- I have awful hand-eye coordination, I don't like tactics, I don't like fighting, I don't like keeping track of inventory, and I can't read a game map to save my life."</i><br /><br />So she is unable to perform the tasks in a game - nothing wrong with that, don't play. What you want to finish the game despite being able to?<br /><br />"If he aims for a goal, he must do the necessary effort and have the necessary skill to reach this goal. If he can't do it, he is either a moron or a slacker."<br /><br /><i>"If you could tell developers of games to make sure to put one thing in games to appeal to a broader audience which includes women, what would that one thing be?"</i><br /><br />A broader audience? Like making raiding appealing for everyone and introducing LFR?<br />The only way to open up a game to a broader audience is to lower the required effort as smart players won't try things they are unable to do.<br /><br />And what shit is the linked article?<br />A feminist calling ALL gamers misogynist? Never heard that before...<br /><br />The <a href="http://thessalian.tumblr.com/post/17910381775/apparently-the-people-supporting-jennifer-hepler-on" rel="nofollow">other post</a> is even worse:<br /><br /><i>"Well, y’know what? FUCK THAT. I use my cheat codes. I like ME3’s story mode. And you know what else? That doesn’t make me any less a gamer than these dipshits bitching about faggy storylines and other assorted bullshit like that. And if these people don’t like it? Well, tough nuggets; that’s how it is."</i><br /><br />That sound much like Arthasloldk:<br />"I don't put in the effort but that doesn't make me any less a gamer than you. If you don't like it? Too bad, deal with it!"<br /><br /><i>"Because then it’s not as awesome that they can beat the game; they don’t have the bragging rights anymore because anyone can just skip the combat and reach the end. It’s like they think the difficulty of the game not only makes them special and awesome, but that it’ll keep out the ‘undesirable element’."</i><br /><br />Bragging? No, but it removes the effort. It makes any effort put into figuring out what to do a waste of time.<br />You found a different way to beat heroic Morchok? How to do missions in EVE without the risk of low/null sec?<br />Cool story, I pushed a button.<br />Yes, difficulty keeps out the 'undesireable element'.<br />Not the women that play games and put in the effort but the scum of the earth, the morons and slackers.Camonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-66024935234482882342012-02-29T11:35:34.840+01:002012-02-29T11:35:34.840+01:00I just wanted to point out that these are the same...I just wanted to point out that these are the same people who rage on Blizz boards about the removal of farmable skill runes in Diablo 3 (now they will apparently just appear with each level), as it would be one more thing they could show off. This (the forum rage) demonstrates the interesting psychological phenomenon of feeling the loss of something you never actually had and holding people up to promises they never made.<br /><br />Also I agree with Anon that I don't see the skippable combat suggestion applying to MMOs in the foreseeable future.<br /><br />As a side note I'd like to say that as an RPG enthusiast I really hated games like Mass Effect 2 or Dragon Age 2 (to a lesser extent The Witcher 2) where the cutscenes went on forever and the story choices presented were either extremely constrained or idiotic. I'm looking at you DA2: "Do you want to slaugter all the mages or slaughter all the templars? Choose wisely."<br /><br />Article suggestion: skipping combat in EVE. To what extent is it possible for various occupations? What are some methods of doing it?Kacpernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-87057872838296123222012-02-29T11:14:46.534+01:002012-02-29T11:14:46.534+01:00You're completly wrong. First the hate wasn...You're completly wrong. First the hate wasn't sexist. That woman said "your're just jelly that im a game dev and have a vagina"<br />that's poking the beehive and naturally she got commends according to it.<br />Second it was never about mmos but Singleplayer. A fps/action game without combat is a movie/book. You don't need a game then you can simply work in the prefered medium.<br />The fear was that the direction is robo homolust novel with skipable casual combat. No serious gamer want's that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-75221979514643479132012-02-29T11:00:59.798+01:002012-02-29T11:00:59.798+01:00Anti, what kind of loyalty do you expect from gobl...Anti, what kind of loyalty do you expect from goblins? I would imagine that any real goblin would betray you if it was more profitable for them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-33303408890663247632012-02-29T10:55:10.720+01:002012-02-29T10:55:10.720+01:00Anon:
"
I agree that this is probably the mot...Anon:<br />"<br />I agree that this is probably the motivation behind much of the anger. But I think there are legitimate reason to be against the idea as well.<br />"<br /><br />I agree to this. Your analysis on why e.g. people emote-spam in BG's, are obsessed with BG dmg boards (even though Bases Assaulted etc. are, although still not perfect, much more in line with the actual objectives) and Arena in general are probably correct.<br /><br />While I understand where Ms. Harper is coming from, the problem is that if you make every part of a game in a sense skippable, it stops being a game and becomes more one of those 'Choose Your Own Adventure'-books, which had only a few possible outcomes pre-determined by the author.<br /><br />In a sense the (debatable) evolution from Choose books to gamebooks (Fighting Fantasy) to computer adventure games would become a circle, with the consumer becoming a passive consumer again. <br /><br />There's certainly a market for Choose books but it's the question wether computers are the right medium for them or wether more paasive consumers is what we should be aiming for.NetherLandsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-91282760911380758532012-02-29T10:06:49.556+01:002012-02-29T10:06:49.556+01:00i'm waiting for....
"PUG Update : We ar...i'm waiting for....<br /><br /><br />"PUG Update : We are moving to EvE Online"<br /><br />Some major null sec alliances have shown (or at least claim) having cultural ties outside of EVE makes them stronger because people are less likely to become a traitor to a group they existing loyalties to.<br /><br />Goons, Russians(and other racially homogenous groups) all seem to work better because they are tight knit. <br /><br />It would be interesting to see if a group of goblins has similar success.Antinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-57332788878181073732012-02-29T09:53:49.682+01:002012-02-29T09:53:49.682+01:00How the hell did this move into MMO territory? Hep...How the hell did this move into MMO territory? Hepler was talking about single player games.<br /><br />I play games because I find it fun. But there is an immense amount of people who readily admit that they "suffer through" gameplay that they hate in order to get "rewarded" by the story. Why they don't just watch movies, I don't know.<br /><br />These people can't tell the difference between good, challenging gameplay, snorefest easy "gameplay" or just plain terribly implemented failure. But they keep buying games that they hate playing, so that they can fantasize and/or write fan fiction about Character A fucking Character B.<br /><br />Game companies, of course, notice that shitty games still sell well as long as you include something vaguely resembling a story and plenty of fuckable characters, and release shitty games.<br /><br />The advent of a "skip gameplay, go directly to cutscene" button will only aggravate this.<br /><br />So I say, it's not analogous to pvp, it's more like raiding: The dimwitted hordes want "reward" without effort, and are catered to at the expense of the people who want to play a game.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-83406810607430122872012-02-29T09:21:38.113+01:002012-02-29T09:21:38.113+01:00First of all, skipping combat is nothing new, I gu...First of all, skipping combat is nothing new, I guess you know about heroes of might and magic. The retarded auto combat could lose an archangel against 25 gremlins, but still existed.<br /><br />Second, given the fact that this woman was writing for single player games, I think she was speaking about single player games. I'm not sure that even M&S would get an ego boost if they pwn a CPU player, because you cannot hurt its feelings, you cannot write to it 'UMAD BRO?', etc. etc. <br />In summary your argument has weak points.Geshnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-62635622232993908852012-02-29T08:12:51.906+01:002012-02-29T08:12:51.906+01:00Now, this whole storm in a teacup started over a s...Now, this whole storm in a teacup started over a single player game. All these considerations don't matter there. It's not like 'idspispopd' sparked a controversy in Doom. The cheat codes were always there. In a single-player game there aren't even any peers! Not even imaginary ones. Why the rage then?<br /><br />I think that it is because, even in single player games, if you cater to the lowest common denominator, you end up with poorly balanced games. Dragon Age 2, for example was rather easy even on the hardest difficulty setting. (Also its writing was horrible, and the environments were rushed: -one- cave reused over and over again for all the caves in the game, the whole release screamed of "GIF MOAR MONEY NAO")<br /><br />Casual gamers don't want to learn the game. They want to 'play' the game. Some of them don't understand that 'learning' is part of 'playing'. Since casual gaming is a huge market fit for milking (Hi Zynga, hi Maxis), designers keep doing the same stuff that sells, and that pleases the casuals and pisses off (elitist, oldschool, real) gamers to no end, since they're not even the target audience of games anymore.<br /><br />In the past, cheat codes were a way for the designer to show that they are part of the same 'elitist' circle as the gamers. A cheat code was called a *cheat* code, not a legitimate way of playing for people who can't tell that 1+1=2.<br /><br />This might be pretentiousness, but, in all honesty, I can't help but feel a bit cheated myself.Andruhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12265338942372933846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-32034267731352042142012-02-29T08:12:36.384+01:002012-02-29T08:12:36.384+01:00I think you got it all backwards. You're just ...I think you got it all backwards. You're just taking the "socials are bad mmkay" square peg and trying to fit it into round holes again.<br /><br />Here's why. In most MMOs, combat is actually a function with many, many, many variables. In essence, combat in a "non skipping" scenario assumes as few variables as possible, and lets the player fill up the rest, willingly or unwillingly.<br /><br />Now, if the designer wants some people to skip, he must make the game assume some, if not all of the variables that come into play in combat. In theory, such a rational designer would have to assume that those variables would be the weighted average of who he expects to use that 'skip' option.<br /><br />And therein lies the problem. The 'good' people would do better if they didn't skip combat, while the 'bad' people would do worse. The rational choice would be, if you're good, to not skip, and if you're bad, to skip.<br /><br />However, this will skew the above idea that the input variables are an average. Meaning that, if the designer doesn't alter his variable input for the 'skip' algorithm, he is, essentially, supporting the 'no moron left behind' policy, designer-mandated boosting. <br /><br />If he does alter the input, he risks making the 'skip' option ineffective, due to its vicious circle of driving above average people to manual combat.<br /><br />Now, the second outcome is obviously bad, because you'll end up with a 'skip' combat option that no one will use.<br /><br />Why is designer-mandated boosting bad, in a MMO, then?<br /><br />Because the people who are boosted are THE ONES who want to discriminate others like them. Arthasloldk wants other arthasloldks to see him as a 'cool peep'. With designer boosting, he sees that everyone gets the same shinies, and he can't stand it, *even if he was the receiver of designer boosting himself*!<br /><br />Need I remind you the Gearscore? Needing ICC25HC gearscore to do ICC10 normal in PUGs? This is PRECISELY that effect. Recipients of designer-boosting do not want other recipients of designer-boosts.<br /><br />What's more, the designer is interested in keeping all arthasloldks in the game. They give money. Driving them away with sanctioning "dat fukkin cheater has da same tings as me" is simply moronic. Trying to argue to them why the policy does not hurt 'good' people is futile. <br /><br />He's not good in the first place! He's completely right, for once. This policy is completely against his interests. Why would he accept it?<br /><br />The 'no moron left behind' policy is bad precisely because it pisses off morons. No one is going to accept that they're a moron. It's always "the other guy getting boosted by the designers."Andruhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12265338942372933846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-70271028332902599442012-02-29T08:05:04.529+01:002012-02-29T08:05:04.529+01:00what's wrong with trying to impress other peop...what's wrong with trying to impress other people? For example, impress your boss with your work, or teacher with your effort, or fans with your skill (music or sport)? It may make you social, but the important thing is you do a good job, don't care with the motivation.Raynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-72191114824856064842012-02-29T08:04:11.636+01:002012-02-29T08:04:11.636+01:00@Azuriel: if you auto-combat a raidboss, you proba...@Azuriel: if you auto-combat a raidboss, you probably die. You can only auto-combat trivial enemies, including trasmob on Arathi Bridge.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-67092847041357361462012-02-29T07:47:10.165+01:002012-02-29T07:47:10.165+01:00That was the most strained, convoluted argument I ...That was the most strained, convoluted argument I have ever seen in print.<br /><br />Even if everyone was able to skip combat, there would still be people doing PvP, there would still be the social accolades. I do not believe even Jennifer Hepler was suggesting that one could "spacebar" through Honor/Justice gear.<br /><br />The intellectual issue at hand with her game design suggestion is the exact one most people criticize the M&S for: the desire of an I-WIN button. If you <i>could</i> press a button and receive reward for (literally this time!) no effort, who <i>wouldn't</i> be pressing said button? And even if you believe yourself to be principled enough to resist, the fact remains that the temptation would always be there. More importantly, <i>everyone else would be using it</i>, which would put you at a relative disadvantage over your fellow players.<br /><br />The deeper issue, IMO, is how the developers would implicitly have less incentive to actually make questing and combat interesting and fun, given that their mistakes can be spacebar'd away. Don't like Firelands dailies? Who cares, just spacebar.Azurielhttp://inanage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-69591821614392540612012-02-29T07:27:46.059+01:002012-02-29T07:27:46.059+01:00I agree that this is probably the motivation behin...I agree that this is probably the motivation behind much of the anger. But I think there are legitimate reason to be against the idea as well. I personally couldn't care less about stories in games. If I want a good story then I will watch a good movie or read a novel. When I play a game I am only interested in the game play mechanics. <br /><br />So the reason I would be against the implementation of such a mode is that it implies that the story must stand on it's own, independent of the quality of the game play. Now that in and of itself is not something I am against, but the majority of games have limited development time and funding. If they must spend more money to hire better writers and develop an actual quality story then that will steal funding and focus from the development of the game play mechanics, which is all I care about.<br /><br />We already have many 'cinematic' games where game play is relatively throw away, the player has no meaningful choices to make and the story is front and center. If this idea takes hold then I am afraid that will become the norm.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com