tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post4485987572770592167..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: The good old timesGevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-89768450142879213582010-09-23T16:54:50.551+02:002010-09-23T16:54:50.551+02:00I like the guide. but more importantly, i see dalv...I like the guide. but more importantly, i see dalvengyr, and i laugh. I used to play there.Koievnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-66728493853615335962010-09-18T02:12:11.447+02:002010-09-18T02:12:11.447+02:00I will also say that doing the heroic content in W...I will also say that doing the heroic content in WOTLK (At the appropriate tier) is by far harder then anything in Classic/BC. Yet, ironically, everyone and their mother seems to jump on the "Dumbed down content" bandwagon - even though most of those people haven't even beaten that content.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-19938337069636364832010-09-18T02:10:26.700+02:002010-09-18T02:10:26.700+02:00"Being accessible also means the game is only..."Being accessible also means the game is only minimally challenging and the stories are only minimally deep."<br /><br />That is not at all true.<br /><br />"Easy to learn, difficult to master" is accessible, but challenging. And for a good number of classes, WoW falls into that category. For most of them, performing well enough to kill LK 25 heroic is plenty challenging.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-87948765995145175312010-09-17T19:30:21.045+02:002010-09-17T19:30:21.045+02:00To me the real issue is not in scaling down raidin...To me the real issue is not in scaling down raiding content to improve accessibility. WoTLK HM encounter are definitely more complex but vanilla Naxx is arguably on par if not harder than ICC or Ulduar. The difference is that Naxx challenge was in amount of time commitment and less fine tuned class mechanics.<br /><br />But that's not the point here. I agree with Gevlon that overall game experience has gotten worse but for a different reason. Since initial WoW release Blizzard has failed to add any meaningful game progression beyond raiding. And what was new and exciting in vanilla feels as the same old grind in WoTL - kill the boss get the loot. Gear acquired through raiding is the only real measure of progression. And since there is not much more to do Blizzard had to open raiding for everyone including those who are either well equipped or not inclined to take it seriously. <br /><br />IMO it is oversimplification to assume that M&S who are defined as such by their raid performances would fail in all other venues as. Some probably would but there are plenty of players who are below average raiders but might be successful in pursuing other game goals. The problem there aren't any. Become a goblin and hoard a gazillion of gold? Unfortunately it is not well supported by game mechanics. You hit certain threshold and it becomes meaningless - how much excitement is it in going say from 400k to 500k except for ever increasing maintenance time? And what would you spend this amount of gold on? Buy ICC HM drake from hardcore guild? But we are back to raiding here. And I'm not even touching on oversimplified game economy (e.g. lack of market differentiation) or limited sales automation.<br /><br />Collecting achievements? It is not surprising that Gevlon is relegated to amuse himself by running social experiments in WoW...Andreinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-9820379211975850672010-09-17T06:11:28.176+02:002010-09-17T06:11:28.176+02:00What?! It doesn't make much sense. LK HM went ...What?! It doesn't make much sense. LK HM went down mere days; in february; after blizz opened the frostwing hall; at least the 10 man version. Why are they counting from HM putri?<br /><br /><br />Because no one cares about the watered-down version that 10 man raiding is. Except for one encounter, 10 mans have consistently been easier than their 25 man counterparts.<br /><br />Secondly, IIRC, HM Putri was the last end-wing boss to fall, thereby unlocking LK HM.<br /><br />The gating was not the only stop from killing LK HM, you know.<br /><br />Thirdly, I feel like the list is flawed. Rightly, the only LK HM kill who should have been counted was with 0% buff, as he was intended to be fought.<br /><br />Which means, according to this criteria, that he was not killed for...oh, about 6 months and an extra half-tier of loot?Andruhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12265338942372933846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-90190206374701940902010-09-17T05:14:53.656+02:002010-09-17T05:14:53.656+02:00The vanilla raiders I've talked to say the opp...The vanilla raiders I've talked to say the opposite. With a raid cap of 40, there's no quality control on the people you bring and there would frequently be utter crap players that slipped in either because they were buddies with the GM or the raid needed warm bodies to fill slots. The whole excitement when TBC came out with 25 man raids was that you could drop the half your raid that was mostly dead weight. Conversely, you couldn't carry half your raid to purples anymore since there started to be more gimmicks where one player screwing up once would wipe the entire raid.<br /><br />I get that the loss of mystery is a thing with the newer raids, but not this talk of "accessibility" rather than capability. It reeks of rationalizing sinking more time and effort into a broken system than it really deserved. If it takes me an hour of traveling randomly to find the next leveling zone, that's not a point of pride, it's playing a terribly designed game that wastes my time. A friend asked if I'd recommend WoW right now, and I have to say, wait for cataclysm. Players have told me that to raid vanilla naxx, they had to spend 3-5+ hours a week just farming consumables on top of a 5-day 4+ hour/day schedule, possibly more if they needed one of several reputation grinds. How horribly stupid and inefficient is that? No wonder sites like WoW widows started to crop up, you had to be a real life M&S to be an in-game general or warlord on a populated realm.<br /><br />There are games I played years ago that I would not now because, simply, I have better things to do with my time now, in gaming or otherwise.<br /><br />For tabletop gaming, it still has a big lead on production gaming because the GM can improvise. If I want to do something in a game like fallout or planescape: torment, I'm restricted to a set of choices and interactions that's limited to a pull-down menu of values predicted by some developer hundreds of miles away. You can't even become a highwayman in WoW, the closest you get is /roll 10, /emote takes 100 gold from you. No setting traps, no daring escapes, no trouble with the law; the game engine wasn't built to handle it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-87703509089247399192010-09-17T02:58:55.427+02:002010-09-17T02:58:55.427+02:00Maybe there are more bosses from vanilla there jus...Maybe there are more bosses from vanilla there just because you needed to pull together 40 morons, not 25? Really, i've played with people that were there, and they are not by all means incredible or something like that. They are just as good as raiders in good guilds are now. Some are even worse. <br />Surely, raids today are accessible to total morons, people that doesn't know basics. But if you are talking about average raider, they were just the same as average player today, nothing more, nothing less.<br />Really, you are trying to convince us that back then there were possible to make a 40 people raid filled with good players. I will not buy that. Even now it's easier to boost some slackers or less geared players in 25 than in 10 mode, so it was even easier with 40 people. For sure there were less good, and maybe no good at all players in raiding guilds back then. And thanks to low accessibility, you had hard time if you wanted to replace someone. I highly doubt back then there were less M&S in raiding than today, if we are comparing with hardmode guilds, not trade chat pugs.<br />Remember, Leroy was in a raiding guild too.Leehohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07438956683794597730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-57579475362810341322010-09-17T02:17:23.675+02:002010-09-17T02:17:23.675+02:00@ Alrenous - FFT wasn't that bad - once you ha...@ Alrenous - FFT wasn't that bad - once you had a set combination of troops, you're practically invincible.<br /><br />Metal Marines, on the other hand, is a completely different story. Awesome game that!Squishalothttp://www.wowhead.com/user=Squishalotnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-76716067926667844492010-09-17T00:28:21.908+02:002010-09-17T00:28:21.908+02:00You class people who like to use mammoths near mai...You class people who like to use mammoths near mailboxes into the M&S category... it's not always the 'Lolarthasdk' slackers that do that--on my old server, with one of the top 5 US progression guilds, it was regularly several of the people from that guild who got their rocks off by blocking event questgivers and/or mailboxes that way.<br /><br />(I guess you'd say they are the 'M' portion of the M&S class citizen?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-56158103360735154272010-09-16T22:58:05.622+02:002010-09-16T22:58:05.622+02:00Table-top games are more immersive than WoW becaus...Table-top games are more immersive than WoW because they engage the imagination and wit of the group. A good group is good at creating "flow". Also, the DM isn't just "some guy". He's the same guy you've been running your regular group with; you probably slept on his couch more than once because a gaming session ran late.<br /><br />The problems you're describing are with the social environment. It has nothing to do with "accessibilty" or whether it's immersive or if WoW has gotten "better" over the years. The lack of social filtering is the downside of every MMO. You are in a world with people you don't like and don't want to play with. When that happens in real life, we take care of the situation by leaving or not inviting the moron back. The same situation in WoW gets tolerated much more often, in part because the game doesn't allow the same sort of interaction that people would use if it were a table-top game. It lacks the social cues that everybody uses in real life to deal with idiots and the private sphere that keeps strangers from invading our lives.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-67384130113986055822010-09-16T21:53:39.288+02:002010-09-16T21:53:39.288+02:00Gevlon, i understand your points about all those s...Gevlon, i understand your points about all those slackers, but at the same time i cannot, maybe the WoW culture as a whole, separate "good guild" from a raiding guild.<br /><br />Do we MUST have a raid mentality in order to separate ourselves from M&S?Backthiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03522479411433108707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-89316405196398432872010-09-16T21:19:21.942+02:002010-09-16T21:19:21.942+02:00"it's the game design that allows them to...<i>"it's the game design that allows them to thrive and at the same time waters down the content."</i><br /><br />I agree with this. I think that what is happening is that Blizzard has taken the content and split it at each level into content accessible to various groups of players.<br /><br />It used to be that the more hardcore and organized players were the only ones who would see any end-game content at all. Self-identified "casuals" did not get the better PVP or PVE rewards because there was only one avenue to getting them.<br /><br />Now there are many avenues at each level. Each raid zone has a version that is very challenging and accessible to a small group of players, but it also has a version that is much more forgiving and accessible to a larger group of players.<br /><br />Anyway, the notion of past days being better is just nostalgia. People have a habit of carefully editing their recollections of the past to make them look much tougher (<i>"you kids have it so easy today, but when WE were kids..."</i>) or to make them look much more enjoyable (<i>"oh, those were the days! Such fond memories!"</i>). It's not really an objective approach to evaluating past experiences.Tonushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01082528970434639776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-76141386803350263592010-09-16T20:39:39.477+02:002010-09-16T20:39:39.477+02:00Let's not forget that many of these 'old s...Let's not forget that many of these 'old school' players exhibit their own version of M&S Syndrome.<br /><br />They have this sense of entitlement that their previous successes in old content somehow give them special rights when it comes to new content. They also consider the old 'endurance test' type of content to be the only right way to do things and the only way to measure 'skill'. If you are not 'man enough' to endure the pointlessless of the grinds and endlessly repeated content then you should not expect any success in the game no matter how good a player you might be otherwise.Nielashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08685329191772513319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-3930559757745956592010-09-16T20:35:18.540+02:002010-09-16T20:35:18.540+02:00One other thing that made vanilla raids tougher th...One other thing that made vanilla raids tougher than now is that you could NOT be healed through stupid. Hell, sometimes you could not be healed through unlucky.<br /><br />I still see "pro's" today who stand in stupid or do not use all their talents to mitigate damage taken, because than they wouldn't be as high on the (retard) dps meter.<br /><br />Hopefully we will see a change come with Cata such that personal survivability is valued just has highly as damage done.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-41476798952292382782010-09-16T18:17:27.514+02:002010-09-16T18:17:27.514+02:00I'd claim there were even more M&S during ...I'd claim there were even more M&S during Vanilla than during BC.<br />One reason was that WoW was the first MMO for a lot, if not the majority of players even back then and even avid gamers weren't exactly used to do some research and crunch numbers in order to advance in a videogame (plus it wasn't really necessary for the most part). a lot of people never made the switch from noob to decent in vanilla. after all, if the boss dies, everythings fine, that's how it is in single player games after all. <br />Back in Vanilla it took less than 20 somewhat competent players to boost the mouthbreathing/afk'ing/watching porn rest through pretty much everything but some of the classic Naxx and AQ40 encounters.<br /><br />when kara came around people actually had to pull their weight. <br />yes, indeed.kara. <br />when doing it in quest/normal dungeon blues you couldn't afford someone being on follow half the time anymore and, even more importantly, with the raidleader being the kindergardener for only 10 toddlers instead of 40, it became apparent to everyone and not just the hardcore people. add ons becoming more widespread also did their share.<br />wotlk obviously made things worse again, but vanilla wasn't the golden age concerning m&s, looking back I think m&s ruined my experience more than today and I do pug icc 25 everynow and then as I'm in strict 10 man guild.<br />back then it was 10+ players not even grasping the concept of not standing near a dragon's tail, now it's ~5 people not kiting their little ooze to the big ooze. that IS an improvement, a sad one, but still!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-47229405213216651712010-09-16T18:04:47.665+02:002010-09-16T18:04:47.665+02:00As I see it, WoW has both very easy and very hard ...As I see it, WoW has both very easy and very hard content. All you have to do to become hardcore is to find like-minded people who like challenges. Some of Vanilla's end-game fights were unbeatable because they were plain broken, and not because they demanded great strategic insight.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-60025680544927593902010-09-16T17:53:03.486+02:002010-09-16T17:53:03.486+02:00#5 The Lich King (Heroic) - 42 Days from Heroic Pu...#5 The Lich King (Heroic) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010 <br /><br /><br />What?! It doesn't make much sense. LK HM went down mere days; in february; after blizz opened the frostwing hall; at least the 10 man version. Why are they counting from HM putri?Blastoisenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-29115974974198618242010-09-16T16:57:44.717+02:002010-09-16T16:57:44.717+02:001. No way that WoW is 90% the immersion expierence...1. No way that WoW is 90% the immersion expierence of the Matrix. The Matrix interface to an RPG would be.. unreal. The only thing that would suck is that you'd hate getting hurt, so you'd scurry to the nearest town as quickly as possible to hide out in an Inn. And you know what? It'd <i>still</i> be awesome.<br /><br />2. I actually had more fun when I was a terrible player. Just getting in to Karazhan and looking around was amazing to me. I didn't care if we wiped because my expectations were so low. Now that I have more skill, my expectations are higher.Duskstormnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-49531388034658351142010-09-16T15:25:21.275+02:002010-09-16T15:25:21.275+02:00When I play wow I can push a button, and it can cr...When I play wow I can push a button, and it can crit and that's about it. In a tabletop I can tell my DM how the hell I wanna hit it and he can affect my bonus and minus compared to it. In WoW I don't have to interact with the NPC's. I do agree with you on actively trying to avoid playing with people you don't like, instead of whining at Blizzard for having made the game too easy. As I see it, WoW has both very easy and very hard content. All you have to do to become hardcore is to find like-minded people who like challenges. But anyone who says that an accessible game means a minimally challenging one is deluded.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-19105337427016216362010-09-16T15:03:15.526+02:002010-09-16T15:03:15.526+02:00sorry... but no videogame will ever be as good as ...sorry... but no videogame will ever be as good as the good old pen&paper days!!!Jokklhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11106884629320928775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-2172406968891447072010-09-16T14:53:58.030+02:002010-09-16T14:53:58.030+02:00@Olga: the list shows that many 'old school...@Olga: the list shows that many 'old school' bosses are equivalent (or harder) than WOTLK hardest heroic mode encounters. Basically, it shows that in old times most raiders were equivalent to current 'hardcore hm raiders'. Essentially, in WOTLK Blizzard didn't implement any real heroic modes - they created _easy_ modes and called them normal modes, renaming previous 'normals' into 'heroics'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-19902634453083287822010-09-16T14:37:45.752+02:002010-09-16T14:37:45.752+02:00maybe the whole hard mode is what strongly influen...maybe the whole hard mode is what strongly influences the picture.<br />back in bc, raids kinda started on normal mode and progressed to something similar to today's hard mode. the filter process was done by the tiers. now we have an ass-load of steam roll and almost only hard core demands for hm-raiding. <br />there is no difference to before, it is just called lichking hardmode instead of black temple or sunwell.<br />the difference is that the normal modes are too simplified now which leads to a higher moron-percentage.<br />And this pisses people like me off who like a challenge for fun and not 'really hard work'.<br />This thin line between 'wipe for a single minor mistake by 1 out of 25 people' and 'steam roll/zerg' is the problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-47663788461063717832010-09-16T14:24:31.401+02:002010-09-16T14:24:31.401+02:00The core problem with WoW now (can't speak for...The core problem with WoW now (can't speak for other MMOs because I've only played them briefly) isn't the obscene amount of players whose skills/interests are perhaps better suited to facebook games such as farmville (read: M&S), it's the game design that allows them to thrive and at the same time waters down the content.<br /><br />1) All heroics are the same. Since the average farmville player can't be bothered to learn 12 different dungeons with different game mechanics blizzard just makes one dungeon with 12 different skins. Since they're all "pull and aoe then tank and spank boss" there isn't really any point to having this many.<br /><br />2) No progression path / Content with an expiration date. Since M&S can't be bothered to follow a progression path designed to a) be fun and b) teach them the skills they need for the next part (it's just a game lol), it is completely eliminated. The moment a new tier comes out, that is patch day - the old stuff becomes completely obsolete. Worse then worthless. There is no point in doing old raids (and therefore no one to do them with even if you don't care about the rewards because you don't get anything you can use later. I remember doing Karazhan until the very end back in TBC, because it was fun as hell and also because you could actually use the stuff that dropped. Thing is, this would be ridiculously easy to avoid just by putting things like 5 triumph badges per boss for old raids and something like the OS bag of goods + inventory bag on the last boss, so the old raids are at least more efficient for badge farm for newer people. So they probably didn't do anything like this (weekly raid doesn't count as it never takes you further then 2 bosses in) on purpose. <br /><br />So yeah, the good old days actually did exist. Luckily blizzard's doesn't just want M&S money, they want all the money so they will improve in cataclysm (at least based on what I have seen on the beta).Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03142627211715673207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-77412040230188856012010-09-16T12:33:35.358+02:002010-09-16T12:33:35.358+02:00In context, Lich King heroic is the most brutal en...In context, Lich King heroic is the most brutal encounter ever implemented in WoW, whereas the earliest MC bosses were nothing more than glorified 'you must decurse all these curses' fights. Some of Vanilla's end-game fights were unbeatable because they were plain broken, and not because they demanded great strategic insight. <br /><br /><br />To put it into perspective, there's a very thin line between frustration and immersive gameplay.<br /><br />Sure, there are more morons around. (Let's just concede this point since it's not easily verifiable or disputable. For what's it worth, I agree with Maladroite. The M&S were not visible. The fact that now you HAVE to play with them, ironically makes your mind commit a fallacious deduction.) <br /><br />But anyone who says that an accessible game means a minimally challenging one is deluded.<br /><br />The challenge is there. You just have to attempt to do it.Andruhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12265338942372933846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-78250138764370334452010-09-16T11:57:20.129+02:002010-09-16T11:57:20.129+02:00@Olga: On your list there's sadly a grand tota...@Olga: On your list there's sadly a grand total of THREE bosses from WotLK.<br />All the other Naxx bosses were in the old Naxx.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com