tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post4340388567316436310..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: We all make mistakes right?Gevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-62112533969768256132010-07-07T03:22:51.462+02:002010-07-07T03:22:51.462+02:00I'm fairly sure having each member pay their w...I'm fairly sure having each member pay their way is a Capitalist idea, not a Socialist one. If someone in the raid is wiping you, its your own damn fault for staying in a raid with them. Tell them to improve or kick them and repair your own gear.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-58696424842406988912010-07-06T21:09:25.707+02:002010-07-06T21:09:25.707+02:00Gelvon, I wasn't talking about regular LK disp...Gelvon, I wasn't talking about regular LK dispels. I was talking about heroic LK dispels. You shouldn't cite the PUG being in Phase 2 of the regular fight to be a greater accomplishment.<br /><br />And after a good 12 wipes where dispels were a factor... I've just had a whole night of perfect cleanses. I'm sure glad 3600 of my gold didn't get split among people who's responsibility consists of "Don't stand in shadow trap."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-5925232300128752592010-07-06T01:18:01.485+02:002010-07-06T01:18:01.485+02:00@chewy
'Objection, observation,' I'm...@chewy <br /><br />'Objection, observation,' I'm not interested in these semantics; you didn't make any substantive differentiation between these two words that affects my earlier response, although apparently you said something that you found emotionally important to get off your chest.<br /><br />As to the effectiveness of after the fact fines or mid-attempt ventrilo yelling--I find your question meaningless. Effective towards what goal, measured how? I could name double-digit pros and cons for using vent, to reduce the issue to a single ill-defined metric is ridiculous. If you don't want other people than Gevlon to point out flaws in your logic, you could always use email instead of a public forum's comments :)Kurthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064568916740238502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-23543951192380022752010-07-05T08:50:59.820+02:002010-07-05T08:50:59.820+02:00@Chewy: ventrilo makes people lazy. They just get ...@Chewy: ventrilo makes people lazy. They just get use to "do what's been told". The responsibility to think is solely on the raid leader. "no one told me to not stand there lol" thinks the raider in such environment.<br /><br />I expect the people to think on their own.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-56311120142033676522010-07-05T08:40:48.499+02:002010-07-05T08:40:48.499+02:00"..you could make your same objection to the ..."..you could make your same objection to the use of text-based communication during raids.."<br /><br />It wasn't an objection it was an observation. I don't object to anything this project does until it has some material effect on me, which is highly unlikely ever to be the case. <br /><br />What I was observing is that the method used to focus peoples attention, get them to think about their mistakes, is the financial penalty. The only difference between that and shouting at someone "not to stand in the fire" on vent is that one is more immediate than the other.<br /><br />It's the behavioural change that is important. Gevlon is pursuing the idea that a fine after the event is more effective than a verbal warning in real time. <br /><br />I'm not convinced that one is more effective than the other so my question was an invitation to Gevlon to give his opinion on why he believes they are.chewynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-89565291849424073932010-07-04T08:22:45.853+02:002010-07-04T08:22:45.853+02:00"You wrote somewhere that you don't use v..."You wrote somewhere that you don't use vent because you don't want to simply shout at people to make them do things...Isn't the 300g fine a form of shouting at them ?"<br /><br />I interpreted the "shouting" comment as referring to learning new bosses as a group, the 300g refers to wiping due to a stupid mistake on a boss that is generally known by the raid.<br /><br />Putting that aside, you could make your same objection to the use of text-based communication during raids, and inquire why he doesn't ban that from occurring, since it's so similar to vent. The key difference between the 300g fine, and talking about the fight in /raid after the wipe, and vent, is that vent is used by people for easier immediate communication --both post fight analysis and the 300g fine occur after the fight is over.<br /><br />I know that although my guild requires vent, I tend to use it only between fights, making it closer in function to ingame chat for me anyway. Perhaps some people have problems with patience, and don't want to wait.Kurthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064568916740238502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-39633697707257378472010-07-04T00:52:54.159+02:002010-07-04T00:52:54.159+02:00When I have time to read your post and the comment...When I have time to read your post and the comments I find this topic fascinating.<br /><br />You wrote somewhere that you don't use vent because you don't want to simply shout at people to make them do things, you want them to realise for themselves where they're going wrong. <br /><br />Isn't the 300g fine a form of shouting at them ?chewynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-62106441500976020582010-07-03T22:09:37.722+02:002010-07-03T22:09:37.722+02:00I think you are at the risk of weird encounter mec...I think you are at the risk of weird encounter mechanics messing this up.<br /><br />The primary example would be needing 2 priests to tank in Naxx25.<br /><br />In that case you need priests to volunteer, but often they know they aren't going to be good at it and are volunteering to be the likely cause of a wipe.<br /><br />In my experience those priests often stuff it up, either because they are unfamiliar with tanking, with mind control or with the encounter. I'd say that you want to punish the last one but not the other two.Fawrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-65189157057373819232010-07-03T20:38:23.804+02:002010-07-03T20:38:23.804+02:00Hey, was thinking of your "better PuG" g...Hey, was thinking of your "better PuG" guild and thought that what is needed for a long time in wow is an honest guild( as opposed to - Come with us, we'll clear everything)<br /><br />A guild that has 8 normal bosses on farm, and will always to those with anyone that passes a M&S test (training dummy + all the non-raiding gear he can get himself)<br />Those that care about raiding are free to leave for a long established guild (they want that anyway)<br />You could do 8 bosses on pug, but usually only if everyone already knows the fights, so no patience for a new guy - granting there the road from reading tactics and doing them is not instant<br />Recruitment always open, last people for the run can come from trade.<br /><br />If people want to raid there should be a place to learn that, trade chat is not it, a casual guild is even worse (And let's face it we all want to get in the biggest guilds on the server)nehunternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-62949430025479149852010-07-03T10:00:35.805+02:002010-07-03T10:00:35.805+02:00I wrote a post that's apparently too long to b...I wrote a post that's apparently too long to be accepted as a comment, so you'll just have to read my response here: http://paladinwithin.blogspot.com/2010/07/people-complaining-about-having-to-take.htmlDenethalhttp://paladinwithin.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-54879952284626395132010-07-03T08:55:12.978+02:002010-07-03T08:55:12.978+02:00Continued.
The counterpoint to canceling a raid d...Continued.<br /><br />The counterpoint to canceling a raid due to lack of volunteers for a riskier raid role would be off tanking putricide. Driving the abomination is actually easier than main tanking putricide, but it's a very gimmicky role with a few unintuitive quirks. From my own experience learning it and tutoring another tank, you would essentially expect 3 or so wipes learning it followed by a near 100% success rate afterward. Since the role is restricted to the off tank and is extremely niche, you can easily have players that are familiar with the other aspects of the fight except for the off tank who may be wary of spending a personal 900g for the benefit of progressing the raid as a whole. It's a nonsensical combination of communist incentive with a capitalist disincentive, combining the worst of both worlds. However, while this situation would be dismissed as a doomed wipefest that shouldn't even be tried, in practical terms it would likely be three wipes followed by a kill.<br /><br />This is essentially why I'm wary of declaring the validity of the method so soon. This disincentive without an accompanying incentive which seems like it would lead to stagnation barring the good judgment of the raid leader, which is the same issue when choosing who to invite to a given raid in the first place in any other guild. The system seems to rely on prior familiarity with the fight, which is a byproduct of wiping on it previously in other guilds. The PUG is somewhat too perfect in timing since it comes when players have already practiced much of ICC and with the summer prior to an expansion when many guilds may be languishing from inactivity and leading to players who want to progress for the sake of itself being available. I've seen so many new or resurgent guilds declare their new found progress due to a victory of the leadership or their methods only to collapse under the first instance of leadership conflict or progression stagnation. The reality was that the raiding base was previously familiar with the content from doing it with other guilds and were simply retreading old territory. I'd be interested to see if the guild survives into cataclysm where progression consists of legitimately new content to most raiders and where using fixed raid teams isn't underminded by summer inactivity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-27678086138377720542010-07-03T08:54:56.660+02:002010-07-03T08:54:56.660+02:00The system seems rather confused and self-contradi...The system seems rather confused and self-contradictory. On one hand, the entire point of the gold penalty and the guild itself is to eliminate personal reputation as a measure for an individual raider, yet it makes reputation the sole measure for a raid leader. Why? Are raid leaders unique in that an in-guild reputation operates differently from a raider or is it simply a necessary evil to make the system work? What I see as an issue with this is that the measure of a raid leader is going to be in fair part how progressed they are which in turn is going to rely in no small part in the performance of the people they bring. Even if, officially, you are not stigmatized for causing wipes, a raid leader interested in their own prestige relative to other raid leaders in order to attract the best players definitely would take that reputation into account. This type of competition provides greater incentive for such bias, simply serving to drive it underground.<br /><br />It seems to me that restricting the 300g penalty to mistakes that cause wipes simply ties the raid leader's hands and encourages bad behavior from those willing to exploit it. A dps player who contributes to a fight is risking being the cause of a wipe if they mess up a gimmick, meanwhile one that intentionally dies early essentially gambles that the raid won't wipe due to the enrage timer<br />wherein they could be blamed for the wipe (not a tremendous risk given the ICC buff and daily heroic frost badges). The motivation against doing this would be getting kicked or a bad reputation, which isn't any different from a guild under any other system and that behavior is actually encouraged under these rules and non-altruistic mindset.<br /><br />Continued in next comment due to size...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-66914950152016314542010-07-03T08:51:02.205+02:002010-07-03T08:51:02.205+02:00The system seems rather confused and self-contradi...The system seems rather confused and self-contradictory. The entire point of the gold penalty and the guild itself is to eliminate personal reputation as a measure for an individual raider, yet it makes reputation the sole measure for a raid leader. Why? Are raid leaders unique in that an in-guild reputation operates differently from a raider or is it simply a necessary evil to make the system work? What I see as an issue with this is that the measure of a raid leader is going to be in fair part how progressed they are which in turn is going to rely in no small part in the performance of the people they bring. Even if, officially, you are not stigmatized for causing wipes, a raid leader interested in their own prestige relative to other raid leaders in order to attract the best players definitely would take that reputation into account. This type of competition provides greater incentive for such bias, simply serving to drive it underground.<br /><br />It seems to me that restricting the 300g penalty to mistakes that cause wipes simply ties the raid leader's hands and encourages bad behavior from those willing to exploit it. A dps player who contributes to a fight is risking being the cause of a wipe if they mess up a gimmick, meanwhile one that intentionally dies early essentially gambles that the raid won't wipe due to the enrage timer<br />wherein they could be blamed for the wipe (not a tremendous risk given the ICC buff and daily heroic frost badges). The motivation against doing this would be getting kicked or a bad reputation, which isn't any different from a guild under any other system and that behavior is actually encouraged under these rules and non-altruistic mindset.<br /><br />The counterpoint to the idea of canceling a raid due to lack of volunteers for a riskier raid role would be off tanking putricide. Driving the abomination is actually easier than main tanking putricide, but it's a very gimmicky role with a few unintuitive quirks. From my own experience learning it and tutoring another tank, you would essentially expect 3 or so wipes learning it followed by a near 100% success rate afterward. Since the role is restricted to the off tank and is extremely niche, you can easily have players that are familiar with the other aspects of the fight except for selecting the off tank who may be wary of spending a personal 900g for the benefit of progressing the raid as a whole. It's a nonsensical combination of communist incentive with a capitalist disincentive, combining the worst of both worlds. However, while this situation would be dismissed as a doomed wipefest that shouldn't even be tried, in practical terms it would likely be three wipes followed by a kill.<br /><br />This is essentially why I'm so wary of declaring the validity of the method so soon. This disincentive without an accompanying incentive which seems like it would lead to stagnation barring the good judgment of the raid leader, which is the same issue when choosing who to invite to a given raid in the first place in any other guild. The system seems to rely on prior familiarity with the fight, which is a byproduct of wiping on it previously in other guilds. The PUG is somewhat too perfect in timing since it comes when players have already practiced much of ICC and with the summer prior to an expansion when many guilds may be languishing from inactivity and leading to players who want to progress for the sake of itself being available. I've seen so many new or resurgent guilds declare their new found progress due to a victory of the leadership or their methods only to collapse under the first instance of leadership conflict or progression stagnation. The reality was that the raiding base was previously familiar with the content from doing it with other guilds and were simply retreading old territory. I'd be interested to see if the guild survives into cataclysm where progression consists of legitimately new content to most raiders and where using fixed raid teams isn't underminded by summer inactivity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-70498268631184975592010-07-03T05:45:13.911+02:002010-07-03T05:45:13.911+02:00I want into this guild.I want into this guild.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09782942220746688347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-72486345191492445992010-07-03T00:36:23.978+02:002010-07-03T00:36:23.978+02:00I like this rule because it will filter out filter...I like this rule because it will filter out filter out M&S and motivate the others to play at their best.<br /><br />I just hope this rule won't get me broke :)<br /><br />Anyway, I think you are moving away from the PUG simulation idea. The guild name is misleading. This is bad marketing. It's too bad that a guild can't be renamed.<br /><br />The project is better defined by the 3 original goals, which could be rephrased as this:<br /><br /> - a casual raiding guild<br /> - without M&S<br /> - without social obligations<br /> - without required attendance<br /> - without hierarchy<br /><br />With the new "300 g" rule, we are working toward goal #2: no M&S.bilouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01359829981245449555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-63897276401404560092010-07-02T23:26:31.486+02:002010-07-02T23:26:31.486+02:00People should be able to reasonably expect that th...People should be able to reasonably expect that their guild members or PuG members share a common goal and that they should perform at a level required to equaly contribute to the raid that you're participating in. We also have a monthly subscription fee in common. Since we're like minded in our real money paid and we're united by a common goal to complete the raid then it is very reasonable to pay an "error fee" if your avoidable actions cause other raid members to have to pay a fee based on your error. Based on the monthly subscription fee I would recommend that you charge 1g per dollar subscription fee for all of the raid members that wipe due to your blatant error. In this scenario if your error caused a wipe of a 10 man raid then you would be expected to pay 135g and during a 25 man raid you would be expected to pay 360g.Innohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11855193606152596512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-54995814482048148712010-07-02T22:24:54.997+02:002010-07-02T22:24:54.997+02:00It is very common to have gold penalty in GDKP run...It is very common to have gold penalty in GDKP runs since it came out. Usually you would pay between 200 to 300 Gold for it, I even seen more on my server.<br /><br /> I think people in some of the less population servers just didn't get much chance to see a good GDKP run. For example, One of them on our server is 11/12 HM, people pay to get into that run.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-44718048769096948552010-07-02T20:46:57.310+02:002010-07-02T20:46:57.310+02:00Admitting your own mistake to a group is more powe...Admitting your own mistake to a group is more powerful than paying an imposed penalty that many would feel compel to argue with.<br /><br />Thus you get: "OK I'll pay, but I know I didn't do anything wrong". No learning, likely no improvement.<br /><br />Have the penalty, but if the person who caused the wipe owns up to it PRIOR to the penalty & is able to say how/why the mistake occured, learning and taking personal responsibility is reinforced and encouraged.<br /><br />Repeated simple errors result in removal.Bristalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849907713604626977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-49611577183117467062010-07-02T18:28:21.340+02:002010-07-02T18:28:21.340+02:00I believe the reason a 300g puhishment is looked d...I believe the reason a 300g puhishment is looked down upon does not have to do with it being to harsh or humiliating, but that it is not harsh or humiliating enough. 300g these days is really meaningless, even a below average player could farm that in twenty minutes and smart players in 5-10 minutes. So 300g really has almost no significance to the player who is forced to pay it, and in return they are shielded of their embarrassement. Numerous studies have shown that people are much more affected by social punishment than economical punishment (within reason, obviously a $250,000 fine is much worse than having someone laugh at you). The player who is mocked about freezing 5 guys on Sindy is way more likely to remember their mistake and change it in the future, than the guy who simply threw out 300 of his 50,000g stash and kept raiding. <br /><br />Obviously everything I said about social vs. economical punishment can be argued, and someone such as Gevlon who simply does not care for social behaviour would think differently. But, I believe that a majority of the players in The PuG would react more positively to social incentives/punishments, than economical ones. The proof of this being that high end guilds follow this belief, and the raid leaders who chose that path have five years expierence running very successful guilds and are much more knowledgeable than me or the people reading this post about the subject.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-72831756332493443872010-07-02T18:14:44.374+02:002010-07-02T18:14:44.374+02:00While I don't explicitly disagree with any poi...While I don't explicitly disagree with any points you've made in general, there is one specific error you made in regards to dispelling on the Lich King in phase one. That being the fact that the people with low overall dispel totals are not necessarily doing a bad job of dispelling, often the opposite is the case. The reason for this is that people with better timing, who are paying more attention and who know their own lag and trust their skill will wait longer to dispel, giving players time to get close enough to pass the disease off more reliably. The point of this is that the better players will often wait until 0.2 seconds before the disease would kill a player (unless they're already close enough to pass it to the mobs) while a less skilled player would dispel with as much as a whole second remaining. The upshot of this is that the people with the most skill are often the ones with a lower dispel total.<br /><br />As an example there was the first few nights my guild was working on normal mode Lich King. We had all players who could dispel attempt it and for the most part it worked well enough, however we did end up losing some stacks, having them jump back onto melee or what have you. None of this caused us to wipe in phase one, though it did cost us enough time that we ended up assigning a primary dispeller (myself) and a secondary one as well. The reason I was chosen was not that I had the most dispels, in fact I often had zero, but because the guild knew that I was a reliable healer in general and I often get chosen for specific healing assignments. After that the dispels went almost perfectly, barring a few DPS who didn't run early enough. The secondary dispeller had so little to do that she was eventually told not to bother.<br /><br />Essentially you're encouraging behavior that's counterproductive to actually downing the boss by introducing an artificial standard of performance not inherent to the fight. This isn't the end of the world, and it's certainly not going to stop you from downing the boss. It's not even necessarily all that wrong, since it's the best metric you have to measure performance in that aspect of the fight. Exactly like Gearscore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-7695801712766405242010-07-02T17:40:09.427+02:002010-07-02T17:40:09.427+02:00We have a dedicated dispeller. As a healer, I hat...We have a dedicated dispeller. As a healer, I hate to waste a GCD (not technically, but clicking the dispel button can take up to one second, even on fail) to try to dispel. I need every GCD for heals. If every dispel caused 4 people to try to dispel, then you're just wasting the most important thing in raid encounters- time.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10337390193891963656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-12175113898620404912010-07-02T17:32:44.182+02:002010-07-02T17:32:44.182+02:00@ardoRic: Of course that might work as well. Gen...@ardoRic: Of course that might work as well. Generally there are two ways to encourage someone to change their behavior. The first way is to reward them for the behavior you want to see. The second is to punish them for behavior you don't want to see. I think Gevlon sees the game itself as rewarding good behavior by dropping loot when a boss dies. So to reinforce this he instituted punishments for incorrect behavior rather than additional (probably unnecessary in his mind) rewards for proper behavior.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-33521459128185728352010-07-02T17:22:18.035+02:002010-07-02T17:22:18.035+02:00Many argue that it's counterproductive for peo...Many argue that it's counterproductive for people, having to pay 300 gold to the GDKP-pot when they do a mistake that causes a raid-wipe.<br /><br /><br />This baffles me.<br /><br /><br />While 300 gold isn't much for people with goblinish moneymaking schemes, it is roughly what it costs everyone present in the raid in repairs and time wasted. The logic and math is quite sound.<br /><br /><br />However, I'm going to try to explain this in a simple way:<br /><br /><br />Yes. Paying 300 gold when you wipe the raid works as a deterrent. Not only for people to stop doing stupid mistakes, but also to keep the morale within the raid positive. While this isn't exactly an measurable factor you can calculate, it does work for me to keep my morale up, as well as my interest in raiding.<br /><br /><br />Seeing how we all are above the M&S-level of players, there is no issues with admitting guilt, there is no shame in saying "I screwed up, sorry, I'll try not to do it again." and pay the repairbill for that wipe, alongside a small "sorry for wasting your time" penalty.<br /><br /><br />It is quite logic. You singlehandedly managed to wipe the raid. You might not have known that doing whatever you did would result in catastrophic proportions as a wipe is, but then again, you should have. We who raid expect the rest of the members of the raid to actually know what the hell they are doing, as well as having read up on tactics.<br /><br />If you didn't know what to do, but still went on, you're -especially- to blame for it. It does not take much to press the "No" button when the readycheck comes up and clarify whatever you are uncertain of. We can spend 2 more minutes explaining you the part you don't understand if you just ask us.<br /><br /><br />There is no need for advanced math, such as "You did that task, so that's X, while you did that task, so that's Y" and then add all that into a long-dwindled formula. It's simply "You cost each of us X-amount of gold and we lost Y-amount of time, due to running back, rebuffing and get ready again." And that amount is roughly about 300 gold.<br /><br /><br />Now, some people argue that this rule will work as a deterrent against signing up or doing certain tasks. Why? You are in the raid to fulfill a purpose. So it isn't to be on top of the damage-meters or healing-meters, why is that so bad? We're not here to show off our superiority over the rest we pug content together with. We're here to actually -do- the content. If a scripted fight requires some of us to do certain tasks, that task is important for the success of the raid and for those of us who are in the raid, the execution of that task is way more important than you being high up on the damage- or healing-charts.<br /><br /><br />If the task is not done, it won't matter where on the list you are, as we're all wasting time running back after we are all dead.<br /><br /><br />In that retrospective, if you're in the PuG to show off your superior skills, then you -want- to do those tasks. It's -your- efforts that makes us succeed if you do.<br /><br /><br />On a sidenote.. Some have even asked to be removed from the guild due to this simple rule. To those I have only one thing to say: "Good bye, dramaqueen. You're not the kind we want among our ranks."Denethalhttp://paladinwithin.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-4166927334771863792010-07-02T15:31:51.196+02:002010-07-02T15:31:51.196+02:00Gevlon, I suspect the reason that top-tier guilds ...Gevlon, I suspect the reason that top-tier guilds don't have penalties like that is for three reasons:<br /><br><br><br />1) Every player there knows that enough screwing up gets you benched.<br /><br><br><br />2) Less expendable raiders. In a guild with like 40-50 people, you have some leeway to chase away raiders, because replacements are a dime a dozen. In a bleeding edge guild, if your attrition/burnout rate rises, you waste a lot of time recruiting people.<br /><br><br><br />3) On that bleeding edge, there are no TankSpot videos or detailed strats available. And it's expected that the raid will wipe dozens of times getting the kill.ZachPruckowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15952603904161496266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-87004986292258927142010-07-02T15:14:56.453+02:002010-07-02T15:14:56.453+02:00"I forgot to mention (considered it obvious) ..."I forgot to mention (considered it obvious) but a commenter emphasized it, so I write it down: paying the 300G makes the error "forgiven", it will no longer be mentioned or serve as a basis of later decisions."<br /><br />For such a smart guy, you really have no idea how people work. NOTHING is ever forgiven. NOTHING is ever forgotten. You can try to minimize it, but at the end of the day you're still going to be seething silently at the guy who linked vomit and killed 3 DPS. There is no amount of enlightenment that will save you from these feelings. The only thing capable of doing that is a lobotomy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com