tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post2523365045531824796..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: WoW touristsGevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-70680447148141784452009-04-03T05:28:00.000+02:002009-04-03T05:28:00.000+02:00CAPSLOCK ON, HERE WE GO:NOBODY IN THE WOW TOURIST ...CAPSLOCK ON, HERE WE GO:<BR/><BR/>NOBODY IN THE WOW TOURIST SITUATION IS VALIDATING A PERFECTLY OBVIOUS FACT:<BR/><BR/>PEOPLE WHO PLAY WOW MAY JUST ENJOY THE MMO GENRE IN GENERAL, AND WILL TRY ANYTHING THAT COMES ALONG. THIS IS NOT "TOURISM".<BR/><BR/>PEOPLE WHO PLAY BOTH COUNTERSTRIKE AND TF2 ARE NOT IN THIS SAME BOAT FOR SOME REASON.<BR/><BR/>WHY CAN WE NOT TRY ANOTHER GAME IN OUR GENRE, FIND IT LACKING, AND THEN CANCEL A SUBSCRIPTION WITHOUT IT BEING SOME HUGE FUCKING THING?<BR/><BR/>I WOULD HAPPILY SUBSCRIBE TO 800 MMOS IF THEY WERE DECENT AND FUN. SO FAR, WOW HAS BEEN THE ONLY ONE WITH ENOUGH POLISH TO WARRANT CONTINUED SUBSCRIPTION.<BR/><BR/>IN THE WORDS OF INTERNET ANGSTY TEENS WORLDWIDE:<BR/><BR/>TIRED SUBJECT IS TIRED.<BR/><BR/>MOVE ALONG. NOTHING TO SEE HERE.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01024497755617725448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-74023541371119366762009-04-01T16:46:00.000+02:002009-04-01T16:46:00.000+02:00Sorry to be dim but what does M&S mean?Sorry to be dim but what does M&S mean?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-3825746303267601032009-04-01T03:35:00.000+02:002009-04-01T03:35:00.000+02:00"What is M&S?"They're just like ..."What is M&S?"<BR/><BR/>They're just like M&M's...but instead of chocolate they have a poo-flavored center.<BR/><BR/>Jason (resident drunken idiot of Channel Massive who likes to sign his comments because it makes them 10x more valid)Jasonhttp://www.channelmassive.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-1894520695846322392009-03-31T23:37:00.000+02:002009-03-31T23:37:00.000+02:00What is M&S?What is M&S?Grimhawke[EB]https://www.blogger.com/profile/11461184389410073533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-44758239762544225032009-03-31T21:28:00.000+02:002009-03-31T21:28:00.000+02:00Mute has some good points. I really enjoyed your p...Mute has some good points. I really enjoyed your post though monsigneur greedy goblin and I hope you keep giving such thought to why things happen the way they do. I had a number of M&S people Only takes one really, but we had a few one after the other, slowly destroy my guild and everytime I got rid of one another popped up, it was like whack a mole. Lotro is starting to get some of these people now that it is becoming larger and more prosperous. price of success? Maybe.Thallianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05906461308866998300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-88479680310898062762009-03-31T18:59:00.000+02:002009-03-31T18:59:00.000+02:00I've never judged an MMO based on the other player...I've never judged an MMO based on the other players. And your flat analogy doesn't work because in a game world you are not stuck right beside a group of obnoxious jerks, you ignore them or go somewhere else.<BR/><BR/>I think most MMO players realize that any game, like any chunk of any population, is going to have its share of jerks mixed in with the decent people, and they'll naturally ignore the jerks and associate with like-minded players. It is the quality of the game itself that matters - because you can find other people you enjoy being around in *any* game.Mongonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-76746444236352564662009-03-31T13:44:00.000+02:002009-03-31T13:44:00.000+02:00I refuse being called M&S because I haven'...I refuse being called M&S because I haven't entered the WoW endgame nor have quit it. Then again, I haven't jumped from one game to another in search of the 'perfect game' to call home, even though I don't find WoW perfect by far.<BR/><BR/>I'm pretty sure I could cope with raid content, but I'm pretty sure, too, that I don't want to put the time in that. Already I'm too much in Azeroth instead of spending time with my family.<BR/><BR/>Look what happened to BRK and Phaelia.<BR/><BR/>CopraAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05501269687241477498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-55772775923916881852009-03-31T03:08:00.000+02:002009-03-31T03:08:00.000+02:00I don't understand why you don't want tourists in ...I don't understand why you don't want tourists in the game? Using a real world analogy (that you seem to love) tourists are gold mines to sleep little towns. So why shouldn't tourists be a gold mine to you in game?<BR/><BR/>I agree with the comment regarding your black and white views, unfortunately life has many shades of grey and, for your own sake, you really need to start recognising them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-61754938832222184402009-03-31T02:51:00.000+02:002009-03-31T02:51:00.000+02:00Your black and white views of the world are really...Your black and white views of the world are really starting to show. <BR/><BR/>Yes, stupids really can make a game unbereable (See DarkFall). But people that just want to know what is the thing that "12 million players online" think that is cool is not necesarily bad. In the other extreme i could say that MMO veterans are elitist jerks. <BR/><BR/>Its just an stereotype, paying 15$ a month doesnt affect your level of stupidity. See all the "i pay 15$ a month so i can [insert stupidity here] in most MMO forums" just for example.phoenixboynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-68508083970967126212009-03-31T02:13:00.000+02:002009-03-31T02:13:00.000+02:00Wouldn't it actually be the case that these ga...Wouldn't it actually be the case that these games actually welcome 'tourists' for their money because they do not cause much harm to the 'core' community?<BR/><BR/>I imagine in a pvp game, M&S wouldn't stand a chance to pretend being anything else: impact pvp would impose upon him the marks of the 'loser' in the form of frequent deaths, xp penalties, lack of gear.. perhaps not even being able to level at all (if xp loss is a feature of death).<BR/><BR/>Let's not even talk about games with more or less perma-death implemented... What could the M&S possibly do in such games other than donate money and quit in frustration?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-86168825775659829732009-03-30T22:48:00.000+02:002009-03-30T22:48:00.000+02:00People aren't as dumb as most 'wow tourist' rants ...People aren't as dumb as most 'wow tourist' rants assume. Games like War, AoC and Darkfall just don't offer WoW quality. People don't leave one service for a worse alternative, simple as that.<BR/>I can see how the 'wow tourists' may have a bad impact on new games, technically (server queue's, lag, server mergers, etc), but they are not changing the game itself.<BR/>Tobold is right, the large amount of bored WoW players are a huge opportunity for game developers, they'll just have to realize it's a very, very hard job to get it done right. War, AoC and DF failed, let's see what comes next :)<BR/>Tbh, I think a previous poster is right, you're only disagreeing because it's Tobold. ;) This post doesn't fit between your other posts at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-31234818274409408032009-03-30T20:38:00.000+02:002009-03-30T20:38:00.000+02:00So let me get this straight......if WoW players tr...So let me get this straight...<BR/><BR/>...if WoW players try other games, it's bad. (because they ruin the community)<BR/><BR/>...if WoW players don't try other games, it's bad. (because WoW players should be open about other games instead of assuming WoW is the best without even trying others)<BR/><BR/><BR/>A pretty nice little system for someone (Syncaine) whose real motivation is just to bash WoW players over some other issue he has with them.Hatchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03615033343005638291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-59576178444652262942009-03-30T19:10:00.000+02:002009-03-30T19:10:00.000+02:00Correction of my own math: that is 350,000 subscri...Correction of my own math: that is 350,000 subscriber /years/.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-58543075623955865012009-03-30T17:31:00.000+02:002009-03-30T17:31:00.000+02:00For some reason when I read this post, I think of ...For some reason when I read this post, I think of the Batman: The Dark Knight movie. The Joker would completely disagree with you. He would take great joy in the way these people destroy the games they invade, because he "wanted to watch the world burn". I guess I don't want Jokers in my world either, whether it be RL or an MMO. It's fun in a movie but when you're stuck in it, it really is hell.Yagglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15177750815584983551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-50126697112336314482009-03-30T16:56:00.000+02:002009-03-30T16:56:00.000+02:00This post just didn't make any sense. You fai...This post just didn't make any sense. You failed at all to backup the wild claim that a WoW tourist is a M&S which is crucial to all your points. This is especially important considering that common sense would dictate that WoW tourists represent a cross-section of users of all skill sets, MMO backgrounds, play styles and game knowledge. These aren't tourists they are the potential customers and user base of the new MMO and it's their job to impress and keep them.<BR/><BR/>Considering the huge portion of the MMO market that WoW makes up, it would be the death of every future MMO if they turned down World of Warcraft players. WoW is a common game now that the majority of MMO players have played (at least in the NA & European markets).Yazilliclickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02657214520246273266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-36172672193808101572009-03-30T16:02:00.000+02:002009-03-30T16:02:00.000+02:00You're right in that a single terrible individ...You're right in that a single terrible individual will ruin the experience for a lot of others, and companies typically choose to cut off their income from that one asshole rather than scare away other business.<BR/><BR/>But Syncaine's "Wow tourists" make up significant chunks of a given game's post-launch player base. They include M&S's, but they also include competent casuals, burned out hardcore, and MMO enthusiasts who like to see a variety of games. When games like Warhammer have to reduce their servers by more than 50% after near-forced mergers, you can't talk about single incompetent individuals who ruin the experience for others. As Tobold says, there are just too many people who left the game to blame it on a single demographic. And you can't talk about refusing business from one to protect the many - by banning "Wow tourists," those companies would be refusing business from the many in order to please the few.<BR/><BR/>Granted, that business model is not necessarily bad. It seems to be working well for Darkfall. But Darkfall's devs and backers (hopefully) knew that going into the project. Mark Jacobs does not have the luxury of refusing service because he was trying to make a Wow Killer.Xtiannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-60070616369550140742009-03-30T15:01:00.000+02:002009-03-30T15:01:00.000+02:00I normally enjoy your posts and agree with your we...I normally enjoy your posts and agree with your well constructed arguments and objective debate, but this one is well off the mark.<BR/><BR/>It seems you are disagreing just becuase it's tobold.<BR/><BR/>Your whole assertion of WoW Tourist = Worst kind of M&S is utterly flawed. I could list many players in the tope guilds on my server that tried out the competitor MMOs. You think nobody in ensidia tried AoC or WAR? You think they are 'M&S' if they did?! Totally unfounded and I think even you'll admit that there is ZERO correlation between trying a new to see what it's like and turning up in unenchanted greens to a Naxx raid. That whole section is just a subjective rant, and unfortunately it underpins the whole post.<BR/><BR/>I'm suprised someone with a capitalist mind such as yourself would honestly say $50M revenue from an investment of anything less, is a bad thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-80115362379430063342009-03-30T14:55:00.000+02:002009-03-30T14:55:00.000+02:00So many of your assertions are wrong its comical.I...So many of your assertions are wrong its comical.<BR/><BR/>Its not a binary choice for achievers--play WoW or quit. And people burn out on raiding too--even (or perhaps especially) the hard core raiding guilds have lots of turn over due to burn out or boredom. <BR/><BR/>The mechanics of WoW aren't that different from DAoC which aren't that different from Earth and Beyond which aren't that different from EQs. Once you know agro mechanics, you know agro mechanics. <BR/><BR/>By the time there is a open beta there are usually passable, if not good guides to any game that is out. <BR/><BR/>And you know, after watching a post WoW launch or 3, the expectation of success will change: that a game will move a million units on launch and then contract--its not like you can't plan for it.<BR/><BR/>And your theoretical WoW Tourist won't be interacting with the core much even after the first week or so since they will have mostly leveled out of interaction. <BR/><BR/>Additionally that $50m launch bump is 347,000 months of paid game time (at $12/month)--or somewhere between 1 and 2 years income. <BR/><BR/>And so far, the post-tourist crash hasn't killed a game. They've looked a little beat up--but that is because we expect them to do what WoW did to EQ--you'd be talking about game that had a 100 million players. You will note, too, that EQ is still a going concern. <BR/><BR/>And you miss the case of EVE which has been pulling steadily increasing numbers since a launch and crash. <BR/><BR/>But if I were designing and launching a MMO, I would take the WoW tourist money all the way to the bank.<BR/><BR/>I can't believe that you are advocating throwing away almost 350,000 subscriber months of income.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-38471503036320427372009-03-30T14:49:00.000+02:002009-03-30T14:49:00.000+02:00As mute said, agreeing on the common criteria for ...As mute said, agreeing on the common criteria for M&S would be a futile task, and frankly I don't think that the game company could or should do anything as long as the M&S follow the EULA & TOS. Furthermore, setting up a new identity on the Internet is trivially easy and thus ensures that the anonymity part in GIFT is always satisfied. And I wouldn't have it any other way. The cure would probably be worse than the disease.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00178860601734528122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-90001470205454162332009-03-30T14:30:00.000+02:002009-03-30T14:30:00.000+02:00The fallacy is that they're not tourists for the m...The fallacy is that they're not tourists for the main part but migrants. <BR/><BR/>They leave WoW as economic migrants leave their countries for a better life elsewhere. After a couple of months of tedious buggy crap they pack their suitcases and go home.<BR/><BR/>I do like your point about the mass bans though, what an ingenious way to spoil a game. Still AOC did not fail because of the community (which was better than WoW) it failed because the game was bad. I tried many different characters and just got frustrated because the content I wanted to do was either horribly imbalanced or simply so bugged it didn't work at all.Stabshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08716211705647213383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-17092725522043188082009-03-30T14:17:00.000+02:002009-03-30T14:17:00.000+02:00There's a university CS group planning on making s...There's a university CS group planning on making something like this. Check out this thread at elitistjerks.com: http://elitistjerks.com/f32/t40193-server_wide_karma_blacklist/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-26645002736017470192009-03-30T13:40:00.000+02:002009-03-30T13:40:00.000+02:00Rule 1: Don't make a game that sucks. That wa...Rule 1: Don't make a game that sucks. That way some of those 'tourists' may stick around. I agree with Tobold. $50m to the gaming company is more help than hinderance. I brought and tried AoC when it was released. I didn't bother playing even up to, let alone past, the free subscription period because the game just flat out sucked (imo). As I feel no brand loyalty towards any one game, if it had been good enough I'd probably have switched over to that from WoW.<BR/><BR/>PS> I don't consider myself one fo your 'M&S' since I completed (near enough) end game in both vanilla and TBC despite raiding only twice a week, and so I don't agree with your conclusions.Cassininoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-87805094849980191742009-03-30T09:56:00.000+02:002009-03-30T09:56:00.000+02:00I agree with the most of the post and pointing out...I agree with the most of the post and pointing out massive banning in May in correlation with AoC release was a very useful information which I find quite correct. However, I disagree with the solution idea in details. The terms you listed in that part are very subjective, changes from person to person and in situations. It would be very hard for the MMO-gaming companies to share the datas they collect. When you loan money from a bank, your liability is to pay the money back with interest in a certain time. This is what the bank is interested in - if the loan contract doesn't involve any term regarding the usage of the money. Our contract with Blizzard (or any other gaming company) is to pay our subscription to continue playing under certain rules which are very clear - such as "not botting" etc. Other than that, how we play, how bad we talk in forums etc. is not of great interest of Blizzard. Trolling is regarded as something that should be endured within the community (mainly official forums) and only extreme examples suffer from temporary bans - which don't push them out of the game. If Blizzard wanted to create an elite community, I say they would have much much less subscribers - which means not only "trolls" and other harmful elements are pushed out but also the average people would feel under threat as well. <BR/><BR/>A distibution and sharing of data among MMO-game companies in the way bank do is not a bad idea but in this industry, there's no powerful regulator like government or national bank. Everyone has their own rules. A top-management or a consensus between these companies is very impossible.mutehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149144449453664216noreply@blogger.com