tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post8874541783829165369..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: Loot systems and guild positionsGevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-9334505856668486032009-07-30T12:38:48.707+02:002009-07-30T12:38:48.707+02:00An Enlightened Dictatorship should be more efficie...<i>An Enlightened Dictatorship should be more efficient and equitable than a democracy.</i><br /><br />It's not a black-or-white decision when it comes down to choosing a loot system. The best approach is to pick the benefits from both type of systems and try to avoid their disadvantages.<br /><br />We use quite effectively a Loot Council system, where the decisions in the council, however, are backed up by EPGP. So the officers in charge have pretty much the sense of 'fairness' when it comes to making a decision for common loot, while at the same time we keep the control over who gets BiS items and we apply the council veto on the distribution. We even opt to /roll when it is hard to make the right decision between 2 or 3 players.<br /><br />Since EPGP track is kept in the officers notes, we just don't make those notes accessible to raiders, when we want to promote a bit the 'dictatorship' sense. If the current guild roster gets too 'whiny' about how biased our decisions are, we can just make the officers notes public and give them the sense of 'fairness'. And we can achieve this without really changing the system at all.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13488520076967720118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-33880363602452437702009-07-30T04:54:08.360+02:002009-07-30T04:54:08.360+02:00locyaLoot Council works for top guilds isn't q...locyaLoot Council works for top guilds isn't quite right is it? You could be in the second best guild on the server, but if everyone knows which is the number one guild, then you are still at risk of someone taking their new BiS and moving on. I think the egos and ambitions are at least as high in a "top" guild . Isn't it more about whether the raider has an alternative or not? <br /><br />You also don't remake a point you did a couple of months ago: Someone who works hard on getting gear outside the raid - whether it is a 800g for Spellshock Ring or 8000g for a level 226 Etched Kirin Tor, then their hardwork is penalized by making it less likely the non-numeric council will award them the upgrade. Not a good incentive system.<br /><br />It seems like the net benefit to the group depends on 3 things: how much of an upgrade it is for that person/class, how effective a player the person is, and how much the player will play in the group with that gear.<br /><br />An Enlightened Dictatorship should be more efficient and equitable than a democracy. Yet human nature insures it rarely is for long. Isn't the same thing with Loot Council?hagunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-61267591198332860302009-07-28T18:14:17.797+02:002009-07-28T18:14:17.797+02:00I meant progressional, the joy of iPhone predictiv...I meant progressional, the joy of iPhone predictive writing. As it happens I left the guild few days after discovering that at 3.2 any1 could get the gear I had to kiss the arse of idiots to b in grp for.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-6214404220372796952009-07-28T18:10:38.266+02:002009-07-28T18:10:38.266+02:00l was in A99 on kul tiras, left for two reasons, t...l was in A99 on kul tiras, left for two reasons, the main one being that the guys with massive epgp points would play alts in naxx25 and grab all the top loot. How is lettin alts grab professional gear good for the group?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-68930335067148175562009-07-28T02:13:57.000+02:002009-07-28T02:13:57.000+02:00Not even the best loot system in the world will sa...Not even the best loot system in the world will save you from M&S.<br /><br />They will either roll/bid on shit that they already have or isn't better or, get something better but not use it because it doesn't "feel" better.<br /><br />ex: Paladin not using epic mail healing gear even though the plate piece he had before was a quest green.<br /><br />ex: Hunter not using leather because the mail piece has more armor.Stupid Magenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-87296559359681643632009-07-28T01:36:08.656+02:002009-07-28T01:36:08.656+02:00Steven, I see you are quite satisfied with EPGP an...Steven, I see you are quite satisfied with EPGP and you are in a reasonably "hardore" raiding guild. I would be interested to know more about your experience with it as a progression raider and how it compares with the system you used before EPGP. I understand this is not the place for this so we can take it over the epgp forums: http://groups.google.com/group/epgp-discuss/dishthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04946951184523084387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-54217649645219188222009-07-27T19:49:21.965+02:002009-07-27T19:49:21.965+02:00"The point I was trying to make with loot cou...<i>"The point I was trying to make with loot council is that even when it is 100% impartial, not everyone will think so. In a top guild, those people are idiots and get removed or know how to keep their mouth shut."</i><br /><br />This can also happen in guilds that are not "top" in the sense of server-leading, but are well-run (in a man-management sense), with a good level of trust between the leaders and the rest of the raid group.Svenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07968080562561684936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-17401374937142059332009-07-27T19:04:05.804+02:002009-07-27T19:04:05.804+02:00The point I was trying to make with loot council i...The point I was trying to make with loot council is that even when it is 100% impartial, not everyone will think so. In a top guild, those people are idiots and get removed or know how to keep their mouth shut.<br /><br />DKP is best for the group when you consider more then just value of gear on an individual. That should be the only metric that matters, but if they are not a top guild then other factors are in play.<br /><br />I like our dkp because it handles every situation and is visibly impartial. I don't even have to look at what the loot is when I give it out. If a mistake is about to happen, the raid points it out faster then I can hand the item out.<br /><br />It is fairly fast and people like it.Kevin Marquettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16389030891301082770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-40387289949035374402009-07-27T18:56:08.337+02:002009-07-27T18:56:08.337+02:00ilvl alone does not determine how much of an upgra...ilvl alone does not determine how much of an upgrade an item is for someone however. A best in slot item for a shadow priest being given to a healer for instance = not very good. The primary issue with loot council is no one person or small cabal of officers can be expected to know every spec/every class and their BiS pieces.<br /><br />imho loot council only works if each player has come up with a gear map that incudes BiS and hit cap items and the officers keep those in mind.candyhttp://almostgold.typepad.com/bibleofdreams/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-91640699163912571782009-07-27T18:40:00.137+02:002009-07-27T18:40:00.137+02:00My hardcore 'topguild' used DKP but just l...My hardcore 'topguild' used DKP but just like Gevlon's guild we didn't mind passing the loot around. However it did get ridiculous where it took 5-10 to distribute loot. <br /><br />My social guild uses loot council, ie the raid leader decides who gets to roll. I think that's stupid because the RL doesn't know all classes, so it leads to drama. However the sheep don't know any better.Rob Dejournetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11451389128538898818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-43283714033131178482009-07-27T17:15:19.382+02:002009-07-27T17:15:19.382+02:00@Gevlon
I admit, I wasn't actually assuming y...@Gevlon<br /><br />I admit, I wasn't actually assuming you did it for yourself, but it could very well have been the reason. I figured that just saying it was a good way to find that out.<br /><br />I still don't agree on your DKP standpoint. It can definitely be used as money. In my old guild, DKP was used for many things, even to buy flasks from the GB f.e. (good punishment for not bringing). And by providing for the guild, like you do, you could also get some DKP. I have to say it worked very well, to bad the guild itself consisted mainly out of idiots, and no system fixed that. I made someone a piece of gear for some of his DKP. So it's money in my book.<br /><br />BTW, they changed from loot council to DKP because it was simply impossible to make the correct decisions sometimes (new, promising player with mediocre(200) gear vs regular good player with decent(213) gear). DKP was a good improvement for that. The regular had more chance, but did he want to waste it on a minor improvement. Usually they stopped bidding pretty soon.<br /><br />A fun fact: the few idiots usually spend all their DKP on the first usable drop they see, like gold on a mammoth. It's truly auto-balancing.<br /><br />And still, a bad player that does still go along has value. Whether you like it or not. If he didn't have it, you would play with one less. That guys needs incentive to improve, and I'm a firm believer that giving people incentive makes 'm want to improve. If loot council would never give 'm anything, why would he even bother? DKP will make him do his best. Just good-enough is still good enough. You need him, so he should get something. It's like a bad, but still a bit profitable, deal on AH.Woolynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-80071979796722882322009-07-27T16:16:45.824+02:002009-07-27T16:16:45.824+02:00And I'm still wondering what a "social&qu...And I'm still wondering what a "social" is... (according to Gevlon)<br /><br />Bakc on topic: No matter what loot system you use, it will have problems if your raiders lack of common sense (as a great number of WoW players seems to) and/or if they have a stupid "leet" kid mentality.Sidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-24852182047936135112009-07-27T16:06:51.358+02:002009-07-27T16:06:51.358+02:00@wooly: don't be silly assuming that I write t...@wooly: don't be silly assuming that I write this post for my own gear. No loot council would ever give gear to me.<br /><br />Assuming that DKP is best for the GROUP is just wrong. DKP rewards being there, not doing something. If one is not so good, but not bad for a /gkick, or currently there is no applicant to replace him, he will take loot based on DKP.<br /><br />DKP is also not money, as you cannot trade it. It's government food stamp at best.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-27762428794007486462009-07-27T15:34:40.485+02:002009-07-27T15:34:40.485+02:00Loot council system has two major disadvantages fo...Loot council system has two major disadvantages for top guilds.<br />First is the fact that usually choice is not as simple as 200 to 239 opposed to 226 to 239. Usually it's two 213 to 226. And for that situation the person who distributes the loot needs to know for sure, does this item benefit more for mutilate rogue, combat rogue or feral druid, and for which of them it's BiS. It's guaranteed with DKP system that those three players will not bid for side-grade (if they will, they are not players for top-guild), so with DKP only those who really need will bid on item. But with loot council everyone can say that it's an upgrade - and responsible person will have to make a decision.<br />The second disadvantage is coming from first one. With DKP bidding for item takes one minute max. With loot council it usually takes way more time (i've tried to raid with both systems, so i've seen it myself) - and all this time is stolen from boss attempts.<br />Both this disadvantages can't be avoided, unlike loot drama etc, at least i can't see the way to deal with them.Leehohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07438956683794597730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-17173287560755334582009-07-27T15:22:43.990+02:002009-07-27T15:22:43.990+02:00Loot council only seems to work if the loot master...Loot council only seems to work if the loot master and others on loot council know where the loot should go or at least require the members to know. I was in a guild that gave loot to people that asked for it and often the lootmaster would give the item to a person that didn't get maximum benefit.<br /><br />Our loot master was so ignorant he gave a gun off Kel'thuzad to the fury warrior because he asked for it when a hunter had also asked for it. Dumbest thing any of us had ever seen.<br /><br />I think Loot Council is the best system for progressive guilds as the loot gets where it needs to be. But if your lootmaster is dumb as mule, you'll have serious drama and problems with loot council.Thunderhornsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-9912457810655903862009-07-27T14:49:30.715+02:002009-07-27T14:49:30.715+02:00Loot council is an ok system in theory, though is ...Loot council is an ok system in theory, though is bloody easy to crack. Unless you keep a sheet with everyone's gear, a devious player could easily switch to some blue piece to convince you that he needs it more. Besides, it's heavily dependent on the intelligence and impartiality of the ones deciding: "Hmm.. We <b>like</b> that guy more, let's just give it to him" kind of stuff happens even in the best guilds. Not even mentioning not understanding what kind of gear is best for a certain class/spec/playstyle.<br /><br />This <i>probably</i> won't happen most of the time, though <i>never ever assume anything.</i> Loot Council only works with perfect impartial people, which in my experience don't exist on this planet.<br /><br />DKP system is simply the best system. Should be for a real goblin, because it's based on money (DKP).<br /><br />Though you will never agree, because of your limited playtime, you will always be low on DKP compared to the rest. So... your decision is clearly based on what's best for you.<br /><br />Yes, people who play the most, will have more money to spend. Their gear will be used best too, because they play the most. This IS ALWAYS best for the group, because it's <b>highest gear * time played</b> giving the highest return on the given gear.<br /><br />To bad for the one day a week players, but sometimes life IS fair.<br /><br />And gear will not have much chance on getting in the hands of useless players. The reason for that is: useless players will not raid as often, because they're last choice. If they're not last choice, even when they're not that good, they're not useless, because you simply need them. In that case, gearing them is still best for the group.<br /><br />I can go on for ever, because it's so obvious to me. It's simple: DKP is the best system. It's self regulating, it gives 0 grief, and it gears the ones that are usually there, raiding with you (so most useful).<br /><br />And I can't feel any grief for the one day a week player that will miss out. Even if you're very good, you're just less useful. Too bad.Woolynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-31728308335688852822009-07-27T14:47:41.429+02:002009-07-27T14:47:41.429+02:00I think loot council only works in top guilds. Th...I think loot council only works in top guilds. The problem is drama. It does not matter how fair you are as a loot council, there will be times where someone felt they deserved loot more then the person that got it. Once people think your are not fair it falls appart with the drama.<br /><br />We use a custom system that lets the user feel like they decide what loot they get, but its just another dkp system. It is perfect for our group. The rules feel fair and are set in stone. <br /><br />The loot system is a tool to prevent loot drama. Looking at it that way, our loot system was a huge success. At the same time, we also are not a top guild.Kevin Marquettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16389030891301082770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-49328623863759239602009-07-27T14:08:04.999+02:002009-07-27T14:08:04.999+02:00Vlad "If you don't believe that, look up ...Vlad "If you don't believe that, look up Death and Taxes or SK Gaming.<br />Where are they now?"<br /><br />SK Gaming merged with Nihilium to form Ensidia afaik. But your comment still stands correct. No guild is above disbanding.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12021963958279031989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-15814615219989793452009-07-27T13:52:51.988+02:002009-07-27T13:52:51.988+02:00"The No1 guild has nothing to fear from anyon..."The No1 guild has nothing to fear from anyone quitting for a better guild. So such guild can have loot council, as no players shall fear that the gear they passed on will leaves when someone gquits"<br /><br />Once again a statement made without any justification. <br />The hard core guilds fall apart just as frequently as the 'not so hard-core' guilds.<br />If you don't believe that, look up Death and Taxes or SK Gaming.<br />Where are they now?*vlad*noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-73112962870674058872009-07-27T12:42:49.054+02:002009-07-27T12:42:49.054+02:00I then proudly give gevlon the link to this M&...I then proudly give gevlon the link to this M&S's guilds wowprogress link. http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/hellfire/A+Necessary+EvilUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12021963958279031989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-25779545247652695182009-07-27T12:35:26.384+02:002009-07-27T12:35:26.384+02:00I read the views of Steven and Trib readily acknow...I read the views of Steven and Trib readily acknowledge them. The beauty of WoW is that it's up to YOU to play the game you want (it's your $15), it's up to YOU to define your challenges, etc.<br /><br />If having 100 mounts, the best gear or killing a boss is what does it for you, then you're entitled to go after that achievement.<br /><br />Gevlon seems to think that any way that is not his is the wrong way and people who do so are M&S.Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18381576369055180683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-59340103315864872982009-07-27T12:31:02.057+02:002009-07-27T12:31:02.057+02:00Yes, it might be better for progress if an item go...Yes, it might be better for progress if an item goes to the player for whom its the biggest upgrade. However, that often leads to the biggest slackers getting the gear. Those who didn't bother to craft that ilvl 213 item to upgrade their ilvl 200. That shouldn't be a problem in top guilds of course.<br /><br />Besides, with a DKP system, the player for whom the item is only a small upgrade will most probably pass on the item anyway. Why waste your DKP on minor upgrades? Let the other guy have it if its more use to him and save your DKP for bigger upgrades.Carrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11155709707982913637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-64355487689826842102009-07-27T12:02:20.989+02:002009-07-27T12:02:20.989+02:00"What does it for me though is seeing a boss ..."What does it for me though is seeing a boss drop dead after weeks of team work."<br /><- THIS is what raiding is all about. It doesn't matter on which level of content you are. The "social" guild clearing Naxx for the first time will feel the same as the top guild finaly downing a hardmode.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-76300364328783519882009-07-27T11:35:05.628+02:002009-07-27T11:35:05.628+02:00Thank you Trib. Well said. Most days I don't e...Thank you Trib. Well said. Most days I don't even know why I do it (raid) anymore. It's not a cool factor, or an appearance issue, of the gear, I've had top tier gear for 2 xpacs now, it's just what I wear. Actually I am never on my main unless I'm actually in a raid, otherwise I can't stand to be on him, much less sitting around Dalaran on one of my Proto Drakes just to show off.<br /><br />The motivation at the moment is to see Algalon. I'm glad he exists in the manner he does and requires so much work and dedication to get to. Otherwise our raid weeks would be boring, like they were when Naxx, Sarth 3d, and Malygos was all we had. We cleared all of that content in one 4 hour raid night. Sarth 3d was a 15 minute 1 shot that took more time to clear trash. Not fun. But gear, lol, yeah it's what we work for, but it's not the end, it's the means to an end. <br /><br />I piss on achievements to be honest. Sadly hard modes are the only challenge in the game and they are linked to achievements. But because I don't care for achievements doesn't give me any right to degrade the player who wants 100 mounts, or has cleared every dungeon below lvl 60 on his lvl 80 toon solo, just for the 10 achievement points each of these dungeons gives. I'm glad these guys are having fun, I wish those achievements are what did it for me. What does it for me though is seeing a boss drop dead after weeks of team work.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12021963958279031989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-8406656193012565492009-07-27T11:09:39.370+02:002009-07-27T11:09:39.370+02:00Wow, listen to you, Gevlon, all grown up after a f...Wow, listen to you, Gevlon, all grown up after a few months raiding and apparently qualified to make a broad sweeping statement such as "raiders work for the challenge".<br /><br />You may want to consider that raiders, of whatever level, are made up of a varied cross section of the population. As such their motives and drives are varied as well. Whatever their motivation, their skill level remains the same. I've read you long enough to know that you would never claim that altruistic motives (the challenge) will yield a greater return than base motivation.<br /><br />If you're down for the challenge, good for you. I suppose your lucky that you came to rading so late that a lot of the more difficult challenges carry visible rewards such as titles or mounts.<br /><br />If you are still confused as to the motives of top end raiders, try this test. Go to Krasus' Landing and wait there a while. You will definetly see the more advanced raiders come to strut their stuff and fancy mounts. <br /><br />Oh, and welcome to "raiding and the culture involved in it". Here's hoping it remains as much fun for you after 2 xpacs as it has for us, whatever our motivations.Tribnoreply@blogger.com