tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post8560262233915700265..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: Who is the target of Undergeared?Gevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-223618041812007492010-07-07T15:20:00.936+02:002010-07-07T15:20:00.936+02:00Are you allowed to use epic leg enchant if you are...Are you allowed to use epic leg enchant if you are not a tailor/leatherworker ?RaduKinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09465405169532197352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-79135981277160034592010-05-14T04:21:46.399+02:002010-05-14T04:21:46.399+02:00@Okrane S.
"The main reasoning will always b...@Okrane S.<br /><br />"The main reasoning will always be that your participants are already experienced raiders."<br /><br />It helps, but not much. Having done Vezax as a rogue/warrior I have no idea what these clouds and multi colored goo on the floor are about. Because I never had mana on that fight before, and never had to care other than not standing in them.<br /><br />There goes my Ulduar experience. Whoosh. ;) You know where it helped? On Flame Leviathan, because I'm a good demolisher driver and always did a ton of damage there.<br /><br />"* New class: Every non-retard knows that playing a different class but with a similar role as your main is easy. Having a mage main and switching to a warlock is really not that much of a difference."<br /><br />How about having a prot warrior (and previously rogue) main and switching to a resto shaman? Not much of a difference really. <br /><br />Even my limited raiding on a resto druid (never considered him a main though) isn't that much of a help - it's a totally different class, and you play it in a totally different way (what do you mean all but one of my heals have cast times, and what are those shiny objects on the floor... oh and weapon enchantments, what where). It's a bit easier that way, but it's still a class I never played before above level 10 or so.<br /><br />"* Antisocial guild: in the case of this progression-oriented raiding, what keeps most socials from this type of raiding is asshatery. Being yelled at after a mistake, bossed around by the guild officers or being forced into investing more than they actually want in a game (strict schedule, preparations etc)"<br /><br />You don't need asshatery for your guild to be successful or progression oriented. I'd even say it's an example of bad leadership if you have to endure all this in a guild. <br /><br />I didn't notice any of that here. Well, maybe except preparations. But if you're not prepared for a raid, you have NO place in it. At all.Saithirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02121434574777329896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-51075727106944650662010-05-13T05:19:19.250+02:002010-05-13T05:19:19.250+02:00People here seem to forget what the project is abo...People here seem to forget what the project is about:<br /><br />This project tries to prove that you don't need to be a hardcore no-lifer and farm gear 24/7 in order to do successful progression raiding.<br /><br />The fact is people wipe (nothing new here guys, even Undergeared guild wipes a few times before downing some bosses). BUT the M&S and or misinformed people <b>blame their wipes on "being undergeared"</b><br /><br />This goes to ridiculous extremes when Tier 9 players say they are undergeared for Ulduar (which is Tier 8 content) or when pug leaders ask for "5k GS minimum" for said raids.<br /><br />When people fails in WoW (and sometimes in real life too) they blame their failure on external factors (being undergeared, "bad luck", the teacher hates me, people are not friendly, etc..) <br /><br />The truth is, they fail because they suck. Either by being morons or being slackers (or both).My pals call me SKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-65608255929324203552010-05-13T03:20:34.594+02:002010-05-13T03:20:34.594+02:00I'm not sure why you think there is a connecti...I'm not sure why you think there is a connection between M&S in game and IRL. I know several people who are terrible at this game, who are lazy and don't care if they perform badly. They are also brilliant and hard working IRL. It's a game, they play to relax, to be lazy.<br /><br />On the other hand, I would define myself as a M&S IRL. I failed high school. I don't have a job. But I am good at this game.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-28646081259428683212010-05-12T22:05:29.977+02:002010-05-12T22:05:29.977+02:00Your point is amazing. But it is for the wrong gam...Your point is amazing. But it is for the wrong game. Do you know why World of Warcraft is being updated and not thrown away? BECAUSE it caters to casuals. The players normally do not cater to casuals (I am in many groups with ninjas and 900 DPS, without fail they are kicked before the last boss), the GAME caters to casuals. ICC is the hardest instance in an easy game. This is why there are very few 'middle'. People are either raiding ICC or not raiding very often, because if you can raid you can raid ICC within a month. The difference is that some people know how to play, and thus get to ICC, while others QQ because they can't get to ICC because 'those nerds hate how I have a life'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-8648314913712357202010-05-12T21:01:16.940+02:002010-05-12T21:01:16.940+02:00You all miss one important point: All the M&S ...You all miss one important point: All the M&S are indeed expierienced! They may not know how to kill Arthas, BUT they wipe on the same boss OVER AND OVER again. After a few tries you should know how to beat that boss and then you try to learn the next boss. However, they still wipe on the same boss after 10+ tries and that has nothing to do with expierience!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-25007704077182885072010-05-12T18:47:21.602+02:002010-05-12T18:47:21.602+02:00What I don't get is this......
Gevlon is atte...What I don't get is this......<br /><br />Gevlon is attempting to enlighten the socials who carry around the M&S because he believes that his world will be a better place (for him) if he does so. Whether this is true or not is debatable but isn't it equally valid for me as a social to carry around M&S because it makes me happy (ie makes my world a better place)? Either in the altruistic sense or in the "heh, I did 4x the dps of this guy" mode. Just because we've been "poisoned" by society doesn't mean that the utility we gain from being social is any less real then the happiness gevlon gets from doing ... whatever it is that makes him happy.Sytonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-12749017670489982522010-05-12T18:04:37.791+02:002010-05-12T18:04:37.791+02:00@Wilson
"Doesn't matter. If most of the ...@Wilson<br /><br />"Doesn't matter. If most of the people involved are thoroughly familiar with the content (something I can reasonably infer from your statement) then that is vastly different than a group trying to do content for the first time. And therefore none of this so far is very convincing. Interesting, but not convincing."<br /><br />I think you are attempting to be convinced of something that no one is trying to convince you of. "A group trying to do content for the first time" doesn't sound at all like what is at issue here. We're talking about people wiping on older content because they are attempting to carry M+S through it.<br /><br />Groups working on content that is new for everyone are obviously doing things right already, and as such are not the target audience for this project.<br /><br />Perhaps you are confused because you still think ICC is new content. ICC normal mode is very easy compared to past raids such as naxx60 and Sunwell, which would more usefully be compared to ICC heroic. People pug full ICC normal clears.Kurthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064568916740238502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-34813130196555541782010-05-12T17:55:22.158+02:002010-05-12T17:55:22.158+02:00I was one of those who stated this and I still bel...I was one of those who stated this and I still believe that in the minds of the socials this wont change much because of underlying conceptions about successful raiding.<br /><br />* Raiding once per week: nobody will believe that. The main reasoning will always be that your participants are already experienced raiders. And let's be frank: individually, each member has experienced the content more that at a 1 hour/week rate.<br /><br />* New class: Every non-retard knows that playing a different class but with a similar role as your main is easy. Having a mage main and switching to a warlock is really not that much of a difference.<br /><br />* Antisocial guild: in the case of this progression-oriented raiding, what keeps most socials from this type of raiding is asshatery. Being yelled at after a mistake, bossed around by the guild officers or being forced into investing more than they actually want in a game (strict schedule, preparations etc)<br /><br />These are some of the preconceptions behind people staying in "freindly helpfull guild"Quicksilverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02514588622395952812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-21004902569955422552010-05-12T17:25:52.514+02:002010-05-12T17:25:52.514+02:00I could not agree more!
I recently leveled up a R...I could not agree more!<br /><br />I recently leveled up a Rogue from 1-80 and started farming heroics the instant I dinged. I was completely in quest greens and a few blues I picked up along the way doing about 1.9k dps.<br /><br />The very FIRST heroic I get in, the warrior tank (geared mostly in ilvl 200+ epics mind you) has 22k health, 410 defense and about 400 spirit. Some intellect was in the mix as well.<br /><br />After our first wipe, I see the issue and try to educate him - as my main is a warrior tank. His response? "dude we aren't all so lucky to have gear like you lol i have a life"<br /><br />Seconds later I was voted out of the group. The stupidity of the 1 M&S I understood... but they seem affect everyone around them like some kinda plague.cmillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04411533231744879879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-14373512689208389332010-05-12T17:12:03.353+02:002010-05-12T17:12:03.353+02:00«If most of the people involved are thoroughly fam...«If most of the people involved are thoroughly familiar with the content [..] then that is vastly different than a group trying to do content for the first time. And therefore none of this so far is very convincing.»<br /><br />So, will you be more convinced if we slay the new bosses in Ruby Sanctum close to their release? One, two or even three weeks after the release none of us will be "thoroughly familiar" with the encounter.ardoRichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11034320697611212733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-89048202207380067952010-05-12T16:50:20.471+02:002010-05-12T16:50:20.471+02:00I have a different view of the bads. While I have ...I have a different view of the bads. While I have no need for them in our guild runs, I don't really mind carrying them through other content. It's not because I'm nice, it's because I tend to run Randoms, or the weekly, or VOA at odd times when my guildies may not be available, or are already saved. I tank, and can carry a pretty terrible group (with 1 non-terrible healer) through most things. In the interest of getting the stuff I want to do done, carrying bads is a transaction that I am willing to make. Yeah, I could kick people, and get better ones, but that would just make the whole process take longer. Basically, someone has to be so bad that they can single handedly wipe the group in order for it to be a time advantage to replace them.<br /><br />Additionally, I am sure blizzard makes quite a bit of money off of these people, and I or my guildies probably make a fair bit of gold from them off the AH as well. So while they might be worthless in a real raid, they still have certain uses.Kobeathrishttp://www.slightlyover9000.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-52706505749976913652010-05-12T14:47:40.137+02:002010-05-12T14:47:40.137+02:00@ Anonymous: 'What makes you think that the M&...@ Anonymous: 'What makes you think that the M&S will actually believe you?'<br /><br />The fact that you can't read. He's not trying to get the M&S to belive anything. He's trying to get the socials to accept that the M&S are in fact M&S.Sjonnarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08728386387793059874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-37485653348920300592010-05-12T14:24:42.824+02:002010-05-12T14:24:42.824+02:00@Maladroite:
"The perception is wrong then. ...@Maladroite:<br /><br /><i>"The perception is wrong then. It's not true that all of the members have cleared all the content multiple times and know the bosses inside out."</i><br /><br />Doesn't matter. If <i>most</i> of the people involved are thoroughly familiar with the content (something I can reasonably infer from your statement) then that is vastly different than a group trying to do content for the first time. And therefore none of this so far is very convincing. Interesting, but not convincing.<br /><br />As for beyond 4/12 ICC, well, that remains to be seen, doesn't it. I don't believe in giving credit to people for stuff they haven't done yet.Wilsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-85649727550614274352010-05-12T14:24:42.823+02:002010-05-12T14:24:42.823+02:00I certainly understand that some folks are more co...I certainly understand that some folks are more competent in their class than others. Many players feel shame in asking questions. I'll often offer a helpful class website to someone that I see struggling. It is much easier when its a guildie because they know I'm just trying to be helpful.<br /><br />Slacker pugs are the worst and in the daily random heroic I will often let them die on the last boss if they are geared and not doing damage or at some point act stupid and ask "BOB are you AFK"? hehe<br /><br />I think folks should be at least addressed when they are totally out of sync with their gear to their damage. Sitting there and doing white damage is just being selfish to the others.Chris and Cathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02698318668074944485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-45325327947447780882010-05-12T13:26:22.246+02:002010-05-12T13:26:22.246+02:00What you say, sir, is the old standard "give ...What you say, sir, is the old standard "give fish vs teach to fish" problem. And also it's a proof that help (also social help in RL) is making people lazy and stopping their own motivation for improvement.<br /><br />However, I don't agree with you about helping others - I believe that helping people with potential and wanting to improve themselves give you straight economic advantage - one person that "owes you" and may be useful in the future.Huberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12237602921499568211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-74588853589630064542010-05-12T13:01:35.816+02:002010-05-12T13:01:35.816+02:00Ruby Sanctum is opening up.
Seems like we'll ...Ruby Sanctum is opening up.<br /><br />Seems like we'll have ourselves another dragon to kill!<br /><br />Onward Undergeared!ardoRichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11034320697611212733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-52050706137391401002010-05-12T12:52:39.300+02:002010-05-12T12:52:39.300+02:00Maladroite, maybe some sort of biography post desc...Maladroite, maybe some sort of biography post describing the core raiders would help then. every time I see this project or Gevlon's earlier blue Ulduar clear come up on a message board, most people are quick to dismiss it as highly experienced no-lifers that min maxed the hell out of their gear, knew the fight well beforehand, had the perfect raid composition, knew each other very well, and had a lot of luck. <br /><br />of course there will always be some that just refuse to believe it, but if there are documented answers to all those claims then it will certainly make it harder to ignore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-37176560495360742582010-05-12T11:23:42.548+02:002010-05-12T11:23:42.548+02:00@Anonymus
"OMG. You want to help stupid soci...@Anonymus<br /><br />"OMG. You want to help stupid socials to understand The Truth about M&S?!!!<br />What next? Helping people to be polite?"<br /><br />Did you even read the post? If you did, do it again and try to understand what was being said.gandzohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17889703205384884151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-79541643586024078722010-05-12T11:17:13.354+02:002010-05-12T11:17:13.354+02:00@Andru: That argument has been brought on and disc...@Andru: That argument has been brought on and discussed probably half a dozen times in comments of various posts (iirc, the latest time was around the time when Gevlon announced the starting of Undergeared project).<br />I don't think that any conclusion has (or could) ever be made about that discussion. Ultimately, it goes along the line of "yes RL is unfair from the starting point, and not everyone would be capable of being the first class billionaire/champion etc. But everyone CAN move past the point of being a welfare leecher. If you don't, you're a M&S."Jeanienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-89884596123691814732010-05-12T11:12:47.791+02:002010-05-12T11:12:47.791+02:00@ Gevlon
Grinding epic pixels with bigger numbers...@ Gevlon<br /><br />Grinding epic pixels with bigger numbers isn't just for the M&S.<br /><br />I grind those pixels because I'm a lazy sod. Bigger numbers mean I have to invest less effort in making sure I'm the last one to die on every wipe (tank here).<br />Of course I'm aware those resources are being invested in the grinding, but there's a tactcal benefit gained from having to do less during the actual encounter -- I have more time to assess what the **** people are doing when they die left and right to things they should have avoided in the first place.<br /><br />Assuming they're not retards, and to be honest most of them aren't, I can use that information to avoid a second wipe, and thus save myself excess time on a boss that should have died the first time.Sten Düringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06676541059143438525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-65444895105785925992010-05-12T11:06:32.562+02:002010-05-12T11:06:32.562+02:00While I agree that retard is retard, sometimes the...While I agree that retard is retard, sometimes the non-retard PUG will invite a 900 dps retard (and I'm talking about the amazing feat of doing 900 dps will a full set of external 25-man buffs applied).<br /><br />Why?<br /><br />Because if you're 23 people and you're playing on a low-pop server, it's better to pad out with two idiots than wait anotjer 30 minutes in the hope that two non-retards who aren't already saved log on.<br /><br />Just add them, let them die when they die, and tell them to shut up and prostrate themself in gratitude that you're carrying their sorry arses through content they don't even deserve to watch from a distance.Sten Düringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06676541059143438525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-63268646956787562782010-05-12T09:08:43.794+02:002010-05-12T09:08:43.794+02:00OMG. You want to help stupid socials to understand...OMG. You want to help stupid socials to understand The Truth about M&S?!!!<br />What next? Helping people to be polite?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-62815594846974216922010-05-12T09:08:43.793+02:002010-05-12T09:08:43.793+02:00@ first Anonymous
The perception is wrong then. ...@ first Anonymous<br /><br />The perception is wrong then. It's not true that all of the members have cleared all the content multiple times and know the bosses inside out. Some had never even stepped foot inside Ulduar or ToC before we cleared thsoe instances. I also doubt that many of them have gone much further than 4/12 in ICC normal.Maladroitenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-19071146757187643132010-05-12T09:01:48.692+02:002010-05-12T09:01:48.692+02:00>> "I have no time to raid 5 days a wee...>> "I have no time to raid 5 days a week" is no excuse for being useless. We play 1 day a week.<br /><br />That's a bit unfair statement. You play 1 day a week for the undergeared guild. But I don't think I would be wrong if I assumed that most of the players in Undergeared play on alts/mains the rest of the week and that they have cleared all raids done by Undergeared many times before on their other characters.<br /><br />Experience matters a lot and it is much easier for an experienced player to complete a raid dungeon in blues than it is for a guildless social in T9 who is happy to get into a decent pug raid group once a month, because most of them don't accept him because he has less than 6k GS and no achievements (this applies even more so for the not-so-decent raid groups!).Camielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08629732318319567705noreply@blogger.com