tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post8511465942675920678..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: Can you fight the global optimum?Gevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-15603103316057637712010-01-23T23:21:01.230+01:002010-01-23T23:21:01.230+01:00If you want to play an MMO without people "sl...If you want to play an MMO without people "slowing" you down, seriously pick up a single player game. There are MANY reasons why everyone should run back.<br /><br />This kind of thinking turn players into nothing more than NPC's.. I mean think about it. If running wastes time... then so does talking? Right? Everyone should just memorize every encounter...<br /><br />WoW has had a trend, a "mad" dash towards logic... but if there if one thing I have learned in life... logic is a tool, not a way of life, when you start to apply it to life... and people (more importantly) then it starts to break down... Because humans are irrational by nature... to apply rational concepts to an irrational species... well.. it's like putting a square peg in a round hole...<br /><br />Honestly that is the MOST irrational part of the whole post... to assume for some reason that a human being is to be reduced down to a simple process of numbers is COMPLETELY miss the point of playing a Massively MULTIPLAYER GAME..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-86269991647243918932010-01-11T20:22:54.867+01:002010-01-11T20:22:54.867+01:00Interesting considering to wait for guild groups o...Interesting considering to wait for guild groups or to pug 5 HDailies(off the topic a bit, but next thought in the setting social standards discussion)? If it's a value of time/chance. Does it really benefit the guild more to wait (if you are a class in high demand) or to just go? The social bonding aspects (keeping those folks feeling wanted/desired in the guild can help retention of the low demand socials(in 5 man) classes given the ratio of tanks/heals/dps in 5's is often using up the main classes much faster than on 10s or 25s (1/1/3 on 5, 2/2/8 on 10s, and 5/2-3/17-18 on 25s). Some of the only way to keep those folks feeling connected is to wait for the DPS to satisfy them or to pug either of the tank or healer to get them through quickly while risking a slower start or a usually overcomeable awful of one of the tank/healing class so at least one of them is present helping the group get through, but also decreasing the guild's overall wait time as dps alone have a longer wait in que. I heal on 3 classes, so I have no sense of average dps wait time. It's always under a min if a heals is in the group and under 10 seconds if a heal and a tank.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00349526999899447559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-16410107566017173552010-01-11T20:22:37.651+01:002010-01-11T20:22:37.651+01:0012) I'd argue that it has nothing to do with h...12) I'd argue that it has nothing to do with how long it takes them to get back, or the ability to train monkeys, but in the overall time it takes you to enter and exit an instance. Kicking the healer to train them would take more time to get the slot filled and is a loss. Kicking the dps less. Arguing the worst possible time waste. Do which ever is faster. Allow someone else to train a monkey. Self righteous responsibility aside. Depends on how you want to get your jollies that day, but making someone conform to your principles to help them down the road (kinda' like dating and fixing up losers) or to just get it over with till you don't have to do them anymore. <br /><br />* I like neila's slippery slope discussion. But It's the same discussion you had on swapping professions. If it's not profitable, then don't do it. You do it because you are getting more out of it (easier time to get pugs etc). When you stop getting more out of it, it will stop being an option and will either change or die. It's not dying, so stop complaining because you are getting enough out of it or you'd change. It is possible to train the healers just as it's possible to train the DPS. Now it's just easier and doesn't take time with the new group finder. Healers if you want to make a bid for this and train folks to not do it, the 5 mans currently are a great service and wont cost you time.<br /><br />** Darren, I think we analyze stuff because it's fun an interesting. It may be work for some folks, but this is part of the fun for others. Some folks want other parts of their mind to work in fun, other folks want other parts. Why do folks go to a park, just to sit on a bench.. benches are boring... it's not the bench dear. I like to help folks, but was told in ZF back in the day by someone hysterical (as we dragged his lower level through the instance), how dare I expect him to stay back and not experience the pulls!.. he's the only person that I know of that has me on ignore. :) As I tried to explain it to him nicely. I haven't read far back, but his avocation on the weekly folks is to not troll them, but to give them honest responses and then have them go social bonkers at them. It's interesting to see them try and form monopolies to "hurt" others and profit more themselves, but get totally "butthurt" when someone undercuts them. They try and form unions to drive up costs and manipulate folks that aren't in the same professions, trying scare tactics or abuse to get folks to fall in line. As a social who's trying to understand others.. these folks seem CRAZY to me. They are often the highlight of my entertainment here. I spend 1/3 of my time here laughing, 1/3 shocked to breathlessness, 1/3 of my time learning about myself. Feeling and logic aren't separate and often the best folks (only IMO) are able to combine them. Capable of social engineering yes, but more so capable of understanding all sides. And sadly, able to make the harder decisions that are necessary to lead. They often have to make the hard decisions to kick someone, to recruit to replace, to delegate someone out or take someone aside because they aren't worth it to continue to invest in them. This is part of guild leadership. Saying the only folks who can keep folks in guild are the touchy feelies, is incorrect. They can help and often do (spend personal time to keep folks connected, learn how they feel, branch out and fulfill the social needs of a guild), but they are only part. Losing either the guild can tear swiftly. One must acknowledge the other as important. The socials do not have to hurt folks, and the rationals do not have to deal with the aftermath as much. Each playing to their strengths, very difficult for folks to do both, as it's hard to hold both titles at the same time. It's often easier to hate and therefor undervalue the rational officer unless you are faced with having to do the deed yourself.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00349526999899447559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-69716388489467835522010-01-11T20:21:36.011+01:002010-01-11T20:21:36.011+01:009) Social norms are often also set by the raiding ...9) Social norms are often also set by the raiding classes on a server. If someone complains about the healer on a server, their guild often backs them, other folks who've raided with them back them, their "friends" online back them, their pugs who know them back them (raiding folks often have the better gear, have been playing longer, and folks know they are good players.. so even without knowing the situation will socially rebuttal). These are app or not are social and have no bearing on right or wrong, but can set the mood of a server. So if you have friends being an "ass" helps you set norms. But only for folks who care, socials, but above there are arguments for time as well. Given as a whole it decreases time to pulls, and this training they'd go through doesn't waste your time now (with new dungeon warp/dps surplus), training folks in 5 mans would then decrease wait time in 10/25s as well (folks will continue following the same social routine applying it to all situations until they have reason to change "aka get em while they're young"). Those that don't will eventually have more issues with trying to maintain a group and then conform. Also social pressure being more important in the age group we're currently playing in (pier pressure) this is easier now. But that's not really a discussion anymore. For 5 mans, the new configuration helps healers/tanks set the social norms.. for better or worse. <br /><br />10) If you're wiping on a 5 man though, someone sucks. If it's the person not running.. then your option would be clear, it will take as much time to res him as to replace him (kicking him for sucking, and yet making it seem it's because of a social norm he's not performing, would set both without more time loss and possibly improved dps output); without all that lovey dovey social stuff. Harder in 10/25 because of the que, needing to put down a stone, summon, but not if you're in a raiding guild with folks on the sidelines. Speeding up the pulls a few min... after 20 wipes in 1 hour by 2-3 min each wipe... Kicking 1 person often has that effect rather than having to kick all the dps. Or placing DKP loss on it sets the social standard fast within that small unit.<br /><br />11) I'm not sure the dropping penalty wont get worse. The main reason to design a game like this would be to make sure that sometimes the folks who suck get some enjoyment from the game. This includes occ being carried. I'm surprised the detriment to kicking or dropping group wasn't stronger. Those who are better players.. assuming.. would get enjoyment out of other areas and this random daily badge thing is to not only give random players something to do, decrease the ability for folks to do things outside the game or to rush to the game or plan around getting their badges for the day and to intensify the feeling of loss for not logging in for the day... to overall increase folks using the game and older content so they don't need to reprogram as much (also yielding initial greater monetary rewards as their own use of badges decreases swifter as their collection occurs faster)... this has to help the regular folks utilize the game more... relying on the back of the other players by giving them a carrot of 2 frost tokens. Allowing the poor players to receive enough gear to allow them to do the instances on their own by about the time the better players stop needing to run them (yet still extending the poor players use, as they acquire badges slower 2nd inability to play 10's 25's).Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00349526999899447559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-43487796682138462772010-01-11T20:20:48.343+01:002010-01-11T20:20:48.343+01:005)If everyone gets back at roughly the same time, ...5)If everyone gets back at roughly the same time, you do not need to res folks, you can all take part in the buffing/eating etc at roughly the same time. Waiting to res folks to start this process slows down things modestly. It's not as bad on 5 mans, but in 10 and 25, can be a real pain. (just like not having a set reser... makes 4-5 of the resers start the cast and sit there.. while tank goes forward and then folks die because the healers "were resing" all the same guy. Just set 1-3 person for the whole instance and everyone else move up). These are only small nuances. But it can aid if these socials are set.<br /><br />6) Training folks on a server is of interest (especially my small server before the 5 man Xserver pugging (with limited crosses) and after) and is very evident of the culture of the server. When folks see someone get booted for EITHER refusing to rez or refusing to run.. the actions of the party then set the social norm. This is then talked about and depending on the reinforcement they get from the piers they then talk to (guild or trade chat or what have you)... the socials will then set their behavior. This does change if they swap guilds sometimes or servers too. It's interesting feeling/seeing the behaviors of others with the new cross server pugs. You do not need to spam trade to set socials, but it is amusing. You even have folks defend you not out of principles, but on if they like you. Once again.. strange. They are more likely to defend you if they were taught a lesson before. Trying to grasp for importance of the lesson they learned and then teaching another on the social merit, rather than the value of their own time. Is there not a term for looking back on your actions and reassigning purpose and importance, so there looks like reasoning.. even if it wasn't there at the time? Placing a purpose of a lesson, rather than actually having one initially.. rationalizing it so there is one they can grasp onto. "I guess I really deserved that." (Sorry, I wish I recalled it, it's a psych tidbit). <br /><br />7) You can also have arguments that it's often the person who's worst in the mix starting it. Whether or not they've been trained in the current server's policies on running or not and are unaware of the social norms. Haven't realized yet that it will take longer overall to start (so if you're just sitting there at your comp run), or they just don't know where they are going. The thought comes up to kick them or now. With the current queing... does it really take that much time? Waiting for a dps takes under a min (under 10 sec often). If they are bad and they wont run, should you always kick them, as now you have 2 reasons? You can keep pulling. Setting social norms then would require almost no time as that new dps can warp to the dungeon. (it's almost like setting a price on the AH, why worry about social ettiqute if you can make it occur for almost no time change, and can sometime imp your dps). In a 15 min Daily H, adding 10-30sec is seen as a large time, but it takes longer to wipe or res and can be 10 secs for a new dps which may improve dps now, arrive faster and full health and hasten dungeons from there on out. <br /><br />8) There are always the folks who ran and are now unable to get res, and we have to wait for them anyhow. Or the reser trying to get in range and pulling instead starting a wipe festival again. That isn't accounted for in time.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00349526999899447559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-68814315840083546202010-01-11T20:19:49.681+01:002010-01-11T20:19:49.681+01:003) If you can assume a guild environment and that ...3) If you can assume a guild environment and that your somehow get benefit from them saving time or from the social aspect of being seen as benevolent to them, resing has it's merits. Only a small lecture while resing to get them to change if the run is short is often all that's needed to get them to comply, but is very appropriate socially to res them (and discussion can take place while resing). And longer runs, them going afk to bio may lead to the faster pulls in the long run (only if they accept on time, and assuming 1/25 will always have to bio during these afks and can't make it to the set bio break that many raiding guilds have in their schedule). But for the most part having folks run back starts the pulls/buffs faster than waiting to res 18 dead dps,"it's not the group's individual sum of gains you want to optimize" but then the group as a whole. If it's only 4 min tops to do so across those capable of resing (often less with cross class). You will always have to wait for the last one to accept... so the pull always as slow as your longest bio afk over time+resurrection time+ food buff time+if they are required to buff/remana (priests have 3 buffs occ.. buffs often go up, but do not take longer to remana than the person eating their food for the initial food buff for themselves, unless they are responsible for the buff). There is a limited time before others get ansey afk, warp to get that one gem out of their mail/bank/etc since we're still having downtime... etc. Setting rules for engagements is important so this can occur timely across 25 folks. Assuming that it's only the 1 healer's 3 min is not always app, adding these times across how many wipes would be and total folks. <br />For 5 mans (sometimes has pugs rather than guild).. multiplying that for a 15 min FOS (10 min for some 45 min for others) or other heroic (though you don't wipe unless the group is.. having problems unrelated, and likely increasing time in instance) it's worse per time limit, not so bad, but in a 4 hours raiding schedule.. it adds up.<br />4) Saving DPS time AKA "it's not the group's individual sum of gains you want to optimize." I'd rather them waste theirs than mine. And acknowledging that you are a limiting reagent and at current market value of time more than theirs... is it better for the server as a whole to have your time used better if we are indeed the limiting quantity for most groups. But who really cares about server as a whole is a great question. That's like taking time in trade to discuss where to buy milk rather than selling those folks milk. When it comes down to the group, the fastest way to start/finish would be to not bottle neck/wait for cast times. Correct? It is unfortunate that teaching a dps would take time on 10/25 (you could use that for your own afk (f it read amusing posts)! Doing whatever it is that they are doing on their afk?), but on many servers this is set and can continue to be set rather easily. I guess if you wanted you could macro either on entering an instance (I will not res on wipe, run back... or I will res everyone etc) but it's also easier to maintain your group if you do it mid way.. folks are likely to think of the time they've already invested rather than the time to continue. On many of the days I log in I have my days set after about 30 min of logging in (have to limit it to 5-6 hours or they'll take 10). I spend it on my guild mates as I'll receive more out of it as a whole (some of it social bonding, some of it appropriately gearing them). Spending it on pugs I'll never see has very little net gain for me (collective gearing and social banking) given I only need to finish instance for reward. Unsure about the time needed to invest to set a server social norm. But social norms spread fast in a game. Often just occ need to reeducate newer players. Also depends on time on the server (5 years in my case).Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00349526999899447559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-82889466719221164012010-01-11T20:18:21.945+01:002010-01-11T20:18:21.945+01:00Ok 3 seconds off topic to say I'm definitely o...Ok 3 seconds off topic to say I'm definitely one of the "warm fuzzie/social" folks, in guild. Because of the communistic approach I have to supporting guild (I need to take more business classes to learn how to be more effective). I love reading your posts though. You come off very well in your discussions. I'm excited to read your next post. :) Please slam me if you have the desire. I find it fantastic interesting to consider your opinions, thanks for spending your time. *wink* <br /><br />To res or not to res. <br />1) Sometimes the healer needs to go AFK for something as well. If there is always someone needing to go 1/5 times it will have to be the healer right? And 1/5 times a tank or dps will be able to res as well, right? The healer and the other folks have the option to set one of the runners on follow and can follow them to the instance while afking, but it requires someone to start the run. If the dps always assume it will be the heals then setting the heals to follow may help save some of the res, recharge hp/mp, and buffing time (but they'll be right outside the instance and likely have a res shortly if they don't come back on time given it will drop follow once they zone, so it's only good for short afks). But that assumes the heals will always be more reliable than the dps to run. Socially if this is set it will slow down the process 1/5 then (assuming the same consistency within character afks and 5 man groups). Unless you are saying these afks are never necessary and the dps should try and occupy themselves otherwise.<br />2) Some instances (toc, ulduar.. icc second set is longer) given the less than 10 second run (often back before the mob is down on trash), it's actually better for DPS to run (especially if the only variable is next pull start time), but depending on their own understanding of rights and responsibilities and times :) they may or may not. If they understand the time/investment and react appropriately it's less of a bother. Many don't read your forums.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00349526999899447559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-42741987623124772392010-01-11T17:19:25.028+01:002010-01-11T17:19:25.028+01:00In my experience this is never an issue in guild g...In my experience this is never an issue in guild groups. People either run back or have a good reason not to do so and ask politely for a rez for a good reason.<br /><br />On random groups, if the run is going well I'll reluctantly rez because it's in my interests to keep the group going. If I don't the group I'll wait two minutes and then say XXX doesn't seem to want to continue so it looks like the group is over and leave.Yarralnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-88102160634260474852010-01-10T02:19:14.215+01:002010-01-10T02:19:14.215+01:00I think it's sort of just natural human nature...I think it's sort of just natural human nature to feel that the person running back is lazy. I've often felt that way myself, but then I sit and "logic it out" and come to the conclusion that I've no logical reason for feeling that way, so I push it aside.Pikehttp://aspectofthehare.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-89611515593665193722010-01-09T16:43:34.682+01:002010-01-09T16:43:34.682+01:00My first 2 mains were DPS, my current main is a he...My first 2 mains were DPS, my current main is a healer. As a DPS, I have always felt that if the healer runs back, I run back. However, I will also add that I am typically one of the first people to be back in the instance, sometimes ahead of a healer.<br /><br />Neither of your posts on this subject take one thing into account however: boss rooms. <br /><br />If we are fighting a boss and the group wipes, sometimes people die in horrible places where a res isn't even possible. Or perhaps just entering the room itself will start the encounter. Those people have to run back. And yes, there have been times where people have died in boss rooms, wait dead expecting a res, only to find they can't be ressed and they have to run back anyway, wasting everyone's time. <br /><br />Also an issue is difficult raid trash. Some of the packs in Freya's room can be difficult. If a few people die during the pull, it can sometimes be the case where if they released upon death, headed back in, took the portal that is <b>right there</b>, mounted up, and ran back in a timely manner, they would be able to help their raid finish off the rest of the pull, sometimes even avoiding a wipe.<br /><br />There are all sorts of situations involving dead people in WoW, and those should be taken into consideration.<br /><br />I will add however, that there ARE slow people in WoW. You've grouped with them. They're always the last one to arrive at the dungeon (before summoning stones), they are the last one to release, they are the last one to run back from a wipe. Now, whether this is a result of long loading screens, or simply because they are a slow person, they are out there. Every group and raid has at least one. If it means sparing a few seconds ressing that person so I don't have to wait a few mintes, I'll gladly res them if possible.Kirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03964538725250987486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-74472095162329651712010-01-09T15:03:26.379+01:002010-01-09T15:03:26.379+01:00@Gevlon
This is a non-problem for me.
I tank; th...@Gevlon<br /><br />This is a non-problem for me.<br /><br />I tank; therefore I can hand out punishments.<br /><br />If I tell people to run in they run in or I leave the group.<br /><br />Simple.<br /><br />I wait five seconds for a new group to form. Healer waits 15 seconds. DPS wait 15 minutes.<br /><br />You do the math.Sten Düringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06676541059143438525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-45820388550258891202010-01-09T12:21:39.288+01:002010-01-09T12:21:39.288+01:00Gevlon,
The claim in this post rests on an idioti...Gevlon,<br /><br />The claim in this post rests on an idiotic splitting of time into 'wasted' (running) and 'not wasted' (afk). This is because it assumes two things: first, that players have other small tasks they can do while away from the computer and, second, that players can use this time with perfect efficiency.<br /><br />For some players, there are not other small tasks that can be done while away from the computer. If my bladder is empty, the dishes are done, and the floor is swept, my home is usually ok. Other things that need doing, like driving to the store, cannot be broken into 5 minute chunks of afk time.<br /><br />Also, afk time is not used with perfect efficiency. Players must step away from the computer, remember what needs to be done, etc. There is an overhead cost in each transition from WoW to afk. Moreover, player time is often limited. For example, a player may only have an hour to play before going to sleep. In that case, efficiency is measured in terms of heroics done before bedtime, not non-afk-minutes per heroic. In other words, your efficiency metric makes sense only in a small number of cases.<br /><br />Here is a question for Gevlon to ponder: if everybody in the group is capable of rezzing, who runs?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-31595043613202607022010-01-09T11:52:24.990+01:002010-01-09T11:52:24.990+01:00I can usually tolerate one person doing this once,...I can usually tolerate one person doing this once, but any more and I would just leave the group.<br /><br />So I get a 15 minute debuff...who cares? I can use that time to craft/purchase/sell/AH.<br /><br />I lose very little by leaving the group. Queue time as a healer in my battlegroup is less than 30 seconds.<br /><br />I don't lose badges/hour, because I only do the random once to get the frost badges.<br /><br />Realizing this fact, has made pugging more enjoyable for me. I just don't have to "suck it up". If it looks like I have idiots for dps, I leave. Takes all of a few minutes to figure it out. (first trash pull)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17449543706582898618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-86429605900003491182010-01-09T09:38:52.912+01:002010-01-09T09:38:52.912+01:00Gevlon I feel like your oversimplifying the point ...Gevlon I feel like your oversimplifying the point a tad. Yes it is more efficient for you in the above example to rez the slackers. But in reality the social norms that say "everyone must run back" benefit every one over all because over time they teach and weed out the slackers. As a mass social movement the expectation that they won't be given a rez causes them to act in a manner that while personally marginally detrimental is socially optimal. <br /><br />Thus the ape subroutines here are actually in the long run more efficient for you to adhere to. It may cost you a little bit to force the lazy dps to run back but by doing so your helping discourage lazy dps in the future, thus saving you and everyone else who pugs net time. Given that you started this blog as an exercise in teaching people, it seems like it contribute more to the M&S free world you desire to make the pugs suffer and run back. <br /><br />Also your assuming that the time they spend as a corpse is somehow valuable. Maybe in raids this argument has some merit but since we're talking mostly about pugs 5-mans the reasons for failure should/are blindingly obvious and can generally be pinned down to sloppiness (or occasionally a string of very bad luck), hence there is no real need for reflection.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-6467990359371262192010-01-09T06:28:37.966+01:002010-01-09T06:28:37.966+01:00Your maths and logics in this post are absolutely ...Your maths and logics in this post are absolutely idiotic.<br /><br />You're not saving ANY time for the GROUP by having healer run in and ress everyone. You know that, you're a healer. If everyone runs in at the same time, they can start drinking at the same time. If a healer runs in alone: well, he doesn't drink every time he resses someone (like you calculated), but he does drink twice. Once before he resses and once after. Every ress takes 10 seconds. Every person who gets ressed starts drinking/eating to gain health and mana (or get healed). The healer and the last person to get ressed start drinking at the same time, the rest do it in unison. So 50 seconds in ressing and 15-30 seconds for buffing and drinking. Fairly over a minute regardless, versus the 10-15 seconds if everyone had run and eaten/drunk at the same time. A minute's loss for the GROUP.<br /><br />That might be 2-5 minutes of time you could've gone AFK and done something "more important", but if you have that busy a life that you must spend every possible minute doing "something important", you shouldn't play WoW in the first place. However, you're doing something very "sub-optimal" and playing a game to amuse yourself AND you are in a group with other people. You don't know these people and their ideals. So by not running, you might be wasting yet another 5 minutes because the healer refuses to ress you.<br /><br />Also, you forget the random factors. Yesterday I did an oldschool run in UBRS and we wiped. I asked everyone to start running in, but a rogue refused. Of course I would've ressed him when I got inside, but in this case it was impossible. You see, he was right in middle of a mob pack that was at the top of stairs in a hallway. There was no way around them and I couldn't ress him from down the stairs because of LoS. If I had run close enough, I would've aggroed the mobs. There was no way I could've ressed anyone in the group if I had run in alone. We could've cleared the mob pack with 4, but the rogue started yelling and crying and swearing and that was the point I snapped and votekicked. <br /><br />Yes, an "abe-subroutine" of anger. However, now that I think back, it was very useful. He was an idiot and I suspect he was the one who caused the wipe in the first place by accidentally pulling 2 more packs. He refused to run even when it would've been beneficial. His dps sucked even for a stupid, uninformed lowbie. His behavior was annoying and stressful and in the long run that would've most probably caused other problems.<br /><br />Well, my point is that there are no optimal solutions to these problems. While I agree punishing someone for not running is idiotic, I think your logics (in this case) are just as idiotic. These kinds of situations have a lot of different variables and as such the solutions should also be situational: try to make everyone run in, because it saves time for the group and might prevent unseen random variables, but ress people if it's possible and faster. Take into account that not everyone thinks like you do and adjust your behavior accordingly. Sometimes it's fastest to just humor the idiot and get over with it.Jyinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-41633471438069191882010-01-09T00:09:44.845+01:002010-01-09T00:09:44.845+01:00"ZacharyPruckowski said...
Braille - Gev..."ZacharyPruckowski said...<br /><br /> Braille - Gevlon is assuming that time not spent running back is employed doing something non-WoW and useful (bio, food, email, etc.)"<br /><br />I noticed that as well, and from what I've seen, the person who doesn't run back is most likely to be the person who is the M&S of the party. So the likelyhood that the same person is also doing something useful instead of running back is non-existant.<br /><br />This person, this M&S, is not running back because they feel entitled to a res by the simple fact that the other person has a res spell. That sense of entitlement is another big reason why I don't support the idea of people not running back along with the healer. What gives them the right to waste the entire group's time and my materials (bread from a vendor or buff food, mages don't heal and aren't in most 5 mans)?<br /><br />Personally, if everyone else in the group is cooperative and the dungeon debuff is still up (can't kick them) I encourage the group to just keep moving. When they see they can do just as well with 4 as they did with the M&S that's still waiting for a res, there usually isn't any trouble getting them kicked.<br /><br />Or the M&S gets frustrated and leaves, either way, the group doesn't waste time on them. And more often then not, the group finishes with 4 with no more wipes or gets a decent player as a 5th.Braillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17308195595532614608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-49902367107933484812010-01-08T23:22:17.686+01:002010-01-08T23:22:17.686+01:00am i wrong or does all this just assume, that only...am i wrong or does all this just assume, that only healers can ress? what about the tank-paladin or the shaman?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-85383853559262198192010-01-08T22:50:12.752+01:002010-01-08T22:50:12.752+01:00Braille - Gevlon is assuming that time not spent r...Braille - Gevlon is assuming that time not spent running back is employed doing something non-WoW and useful (bio, food, email, etc.). I have little sympathy for this, because the DPSers just spent 10 minutes in the queue.<br /><br />Refusing to run-back has an additional wrinkle - most players seem to have an internal clock whereby they get frustrated (and more likely to quit) if a run lasts longer than about 40 minutes. Given that you just wiped, that timer is more and more relevant. If someone perceives the run is still going "on schedule", they'll be more tolerant of wipes or deaths. If you want to avoid people quitting, your best bet is to do whatever you can to minimize the total run time.<br /><br />What I think would be an interesting addition to the discussion is the history and rationale of the run-back. In WoW, I suspect it exists for two major reasons: progression raiding and healer elevation.<br /><br />Progression guilds force runbacks in many instances because it reduces wipe-recovery time in those raids. While it may not have been the case in Karazhan or other (non-Hyjal) TBC/Vanilla raids, in Wrath, runbacks are faster (because of teleporters (Uld/ICC) or dungeon layout (Sarth, ToC, Naxx's wings)) or mandatory (can't rezz people on 4H, Thaddius or Maly P3) for pretty much every boss (Loatheb, with the instant-respawn hallway, is the obvious exception). Generally, those standards filter down from raiding guilds into the non-progression population.<br /><br />In PUG 5-mans, healers and tanks had a lot more influence than DPSers did, because they were rarer. Wasting a healer's time or ticking him off was a bad idea. Ditto the tank (if he ran back and you wasted his time, that'd be bad). To a limited extent, LFD has made it harder for healers/tanks to retaliate (by refusing to run with you later or kick you) like they used to, but I suspect the run-back is a holdover from those earlier days.ZachPruckowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15952603904161496266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-57895615112939876722010-01-08T19:28:06.905+01:002010-01-08T19:28:06.905+01:002 - I'm going to state the obvious here, ok? W...2 - I'm going to state the obvious here, ok? WoW is a game. Why does anyone play a game? For recreation. For fun. To enjoy some free time. Why analyze every little thing as if we are engineering a bolt that will go into a space shuttle. Why does Gevlon play a game when he could be spending precious time (money) giving real financial advice to real money paying clients. Him spending his efforts playing a game making fake money and raiding in blues sounds about as useless as those socials getting those vanity pets. One person feel superior that they have a mount no one else has, and someone else feels superior because they can clear content with sub optimal gear. Nothing is wrong with either. But it sure does sound like a kettle calling the pot black. <br /><br />Wow isn't a job. I write software for a living. When my rationalist boss or peer inspects my code and finds it inefficient or lacking, I have to put my emotions aside that I was just criticized and improve what I do. As an idealist myself, it is hard to put my emotions aside and admit they may be right and take action especially when the person is quite crass about it. I get paid for writing the best code I can, not to comfort the guy (or myself) who got his feelings hurt. <br /><br />Socials, as Gevlon would call most of the population, need to appreciate the truth and cold logic that comes from the rationalist. But equally so, the rationalists need to embrace the fact, most humans are not logical machines or cold blooded reptiles and learn that tact is a respectable life skill. <br /><br />Aside from all the above, I enjoy Gevlon's posts for the reasons I stated above. Like any given disposed perspective, it can become unbalanced. I consider myself a skilled wow player, but when someone shows blatant sign of noobness, I try to help them out in a nice, helpful manner. Not start off with a "moron, listen up..." type of meanness that Gevlon advocates as relieving other's stress that only a rationalist would respond well to. There are some people that won't listen and you don't have to play with people who refuse to listen to sound reason or refuse to put an appropriate level of effort into the game.Darrennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-64624884984735441692010-01-08T19:27:33.778+01:002010-01-08T19:27:33.778+01:00There are two points I'd like to make here. I&...There are two points I'd like to make here. I'm a long time reader/first time poster here on greedy goblin. This comment applies to most of the blog posts I have read here. <br /><br />1 - Something not taken into account for all this social/non-social talk is the concept of personality wiring. You will act and behave based to a large degree on your personality type. One of the most accurate descriptions on the field is the Myers-Briggs psychology temperaments. <br /><br />Gevlon is a glaring example of a Rationalist (http://www.keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirsey&f=fourtemps&tab=5&c=overview). Rationalists are not swayed by emotions, but are moved by facts, being accurate, competent, and efficient. These are also the people you listen to for advice when math or hard logic comes in to play. Gevlon is an excellent source of financial knowledge in or out of game. I've also learned a few efficiency tips from him as well about squeezing out a bit more performance from my WoW character. <br /><br />Tamarind is more than likely an Idealist (http://www.keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirsey&f=fourtemps&tab=5&c=overview). Idealists are warm, friendly, and also sensitive people. They have ideas that are important to them and base their actions on principles. These types of people make good teachers, counselors, people you go to when you need help and some sympathy. They are generally nice people, but they don't react well when not given the same "warmness", for a lack of a better word. <br /><br />There are two other types in the Myers-Briggs temperament types, but that's outside the scope of this comment. My point here is that these blog posts are set up as a dichotomy as if one perspective is right and one is wrong based on some mathematical formula or some other speculative scenario. They are just clashes of two different perspectives, each having value in their own right. Gevlon might be the guy you listen to for making gold or improving your raid performance, but it is a Tamarind type you would want in your guild to be the diplomatic glue that holds the guild together. The two types are like peanut butter and jelly. You don't accept one and reject the other, you put them together.Darrennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-31196838356804416812010-01-08T18:36:39.539+01:002010-01-08T18:36:39.539+01:00I think your math is faulty.
It seems you're ...I think your math is faulty.<br /><br />It seems you're assuming that the run back takes 5 min in itself, so I'll start with that.<br /><br />1 person runs back = 5 min X 5 players = 25 min group time wasted.<br />2 people run back = 5 min X 5 players = 25 min group time wasted.<br />...<br />5 people run back = 5 min X 5 players = 25 min group time wasted.<br /><br />No matter how many run back, you start with 25 min of group time wasted if everyone else is sitting idle while the person runs back. In the cases where the persons running back includes the healer, anything that has to happen between the moment they get back to where they wiped and the first pull is additional wasted time added onto the 25 min already wasted. Observe:<br /><br />1 person must be res'd = res (10 sec) + buffs (4.5 sec for priest) + drink (~4 sec) = 18.5 sec X 5 players = 1 min 32.5 sec group time wasted<br /><br />2 people must be res'd = drink (~3 sec) + res's (20 sec) + buffs (4.5 sec for priest) + drink (~4 sec) = 31.5 sec X 5 players = 2 min 37.5 sec group time wasted<br /><br />3 people must be res'd = drink (~3 sec) + res's (30 sec) + buffs (4.5 sec for priest) + drink (~5 sec) = 42.5 sec X 5 players = 3 min 32.5 sec group time wasted<br /><br />4 people must be res'd = drink (~3 sec) + res's (40 sec) + buffs (4.5 sec for priest) + drink (~6 sec) = 53.5 sec X 5 players = 4 min 27.5 sec group time wasted<br /><br />This is true for every time the death is "healer + other(s)", so it's cumulative as the group continues through the instance. Which means if it's just one person dying with the healer each time and this happens 4 times, that's now 6 min 10 sec group time wasted on top of the 100 min of group time wasted from the fact that the group had to sit idle while the healer ran back.<br /><br />So anyone who is not running back along with the healer is adding this additional time to the entire group's experience. Most healers want to nip this kind of behavior in the butt as quickly as possible, even if it's just the one person who didn't run back.Braillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17308195595532614608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-41789008845660141062010-01-08T17:39:53.266+01:002010-01-08T17:39:53.266+01:00Coming from a Hardcore Raiding guild and now being...Coming from a Hardcore Raiding guild and now being in a very casual guild on a PvP server, I had to change my outlook on ressing people... Purely because if a raid wiped, we were all expected to run in, get full raid buffs and be ready again within about 5 minutes. The raid leaders also ran in and all of us were still able to talk about the problems that caused the wipe along the way. If someone went afk or what not, it didn't matter, we had a waitlist for a reason. Having that waitlist gave people the incentive to stay and not go afk. Being in a casual guild, even doing 10 mans can get pretty hectic. It's the closest thing to a PuG group without actually pugging, so I pretty much have to res no matter what the case there... I've pretty much taken the same course of action with heroics. There will be instances where I will gripe on occasion about it if the person had more than enough time to get back to the instance before I got back. (I'm usually the last person to die in a wipe, and usually just to give people more incentive to run back.) But really the only wipes I usually are involved in are when the tank pulls 2-3 groups up in Heroic PoS nowadays...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-79827390764406737482010-01-08T17:29:47.337+01:002010-01-08T17:29:47.337+01:00I believe we are essentially trying to address the...I believe we are essentially trying to address the question of "is this a slippery slope?". By giving in, are we creating a system of entitlement? If we let it slide that people slack off on this thing will they slack off other stuff in the run, making us carry them more and more? <br /><br />In the other direction, how far do we have to push things before the people 'going the extra mile' start finding out that all the extras they are doign are adding up where it is just not 'profitable' to play a certain class. ie if a priest decides that they like playing a rogue as much but a rogue does less work there is no reason to play the priest.<br /><br /><br />If everyone but the healer refuses to run in then you will be adding about 10min to the run (Gevlon's math is too optimistic). So a healer might easily figure that it might be just easier to leave the group and queue up again. Once that happens the lost time just keeps escalating.<br /><br />The problem with any system where someone is expected to do something with no benefit to them simply because the cumulative benefit to everyone else is greater than the cost, is that the person doing the extra work will decide that they too want to get part of the benefit. If everyone is gettign something for nothing, why should they not share in teh spoils as well.<br /><br />Let's not forget that not only the healer in a group can rez. Tanks, and DPS can also have rezzing abilities, so the healer might as well decide that he will not run back and the pally tank should do all the rezzing. Of course the pally tank also wants to partake of the 'free time' you get if you do not run and the system breaks down. And since this is a short random instance run, you cannot alternate. It becomes a game of chicken where the person who wants to complete the run the most will give up first.Nielashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08685329191772513319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-21327154100803023072010-01-08T16:36:32.306+01:002010-01-08T16:36:32.306+01:00(not the same Sven as the one above)
There is an ...(not the same Sven as the one above)<br /><br />There is an additional problem with having to rez everybody: the "go go go" brigade. They will often charge in without waiting for the healer to mana-up & cause a wipe. By running in & rezing & re-healing everybody, the healer is often left perilously low on mana, which these idiots ignore.<br /><br />Making people run is, to some extent, an insurance against this. it also adds a cost to failure, which makes people think more carefully about doing dumb stuff.Svenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07968080562561684936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-84282464760228800692010-01-08T16:09:21.459+01:002010-01-08T16:09:21.459+01:00ok but how 'costly' is carrying the guy? I...ok but how 'costly' is carrying the guy? Is it less costly to you if they had a legitimate reason (and assuming the activity requiring them was less physical)?<br /><br />Of course you missed out on what I think is the optimal solution. Everyone runs in, and does a /follow on one person. Then it maybe takes that person an extra 15 seconds to make sure that no one gets stuck, but in the meantime you get all the benefits of everyone regenning mana (and hps) during the run. Also then you can alternate who the leader is, not necessarily just the healer. Of course this may be difficult to get a random group to agree to it.csdxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722249862304204690noreply@blogger.com