tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post8126306177878845341..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: If you can't beat them, join them!Gevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-87041083883431624812010-01-30T14:26:40.113+01:002010-01-30T14:26:40.113+01:00"It's not nonsense. It's Negotiation ..."It's not nonsense. It's Negotiation 101. "I blow everything up" is not a consequence. It's an ultimatum, and it leaves no room for compromise."<br /><br />It's both a consequence and an ultimatum, those are not contradictory terms in this instance.<br /><br />"I'm not easy on slackers. I don't heal people who stand in fires, I don't heal dps between pulls (sit down and eat, sucker) and if the group isn't following the strat, I stop healing. But if someone threatens "X or I leave" then I take them up on the "I leave" part and initiate a vote kick.""<br /><br />Those are both consequences and actions. If you bothered to give them one warning, then they would be ultimatums. "Stop standing in the fire, I won't heal you there." "Follow the strategy that will work, or I'll let the group wipe." "Don't make ultimatums, or I'll vote to kick you from the group" This last one is deliciously self-referential, although it's merely hypothetical.<br /><br />However, all your talk about negotiation notwithstanding, you don't even give them one warning, you just do what you want. Your position is self-consistent, and avoids ultimatums, but any reasonable person would see your behavior as being even farther from negotiation than Gevlon's ultimatum process, which is admittedly already pretty dang far from it.Kurthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064568916740238502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-8360840419403143482010-01-30T03:56:15.533+01:002010-01-30T03:56:15.533+01:00"One glaring problem is that your negotiation..."One glaring problem is that your negotiations involve an ultimatum. Ultimatums are negotiation killers, because any smart negotiator will immediately begin acting as if you have already carried out your ultimatum. " (phelps)<br /><br />"Without displaying your requests and offering rewards for compliance and consequences for non-compliance there is no negotiation at all." (gevlon)<br /><br /><br />This is a confusing state of affairs above, I'm going to make a reply to phelps that I believe more truly represents why gevlon's strategy was presented:<br /><br />You say that ultimatums are 'negotiation killers'--but what does ultimatum mean? From the latin, basically "last request", or last demand. When one issues an ultimatum, one is INTENTIONALLY ENDING the negotiation. I do not understand your argument, which seems to rest upon this basic misunderstanding of the mindset of anyone issuing an ultimatum.<br /><br />I am not sure that I understand your next point either, although I do find it intriguing. Let us suppose that the ultimatum I have issued you is "Give me your wallet, or I will kill you with this Glock." You would then, as a smart negotiator, act as if I had already killed you? There are indeed circumstances where giving in to such physical threats only assures your death, but let's say 5 men with guns are robbing you, then the percentages favor giving them your wallet as an immediate action. Surrealism aside, while I believe your reply holds some basic truth about how to call someone's bluff/respond to an unacceptable ultimatum, it is certainly not something that applies with any generality.<br /><br />@Gevlon: He(phelps) is saying that any strategy you come up with to shortcut negotiation will be unacceptable to him, that he insists on a full process with no preconditions, carried out between 5 people in a small text window, that any reasonable person would expect could easily take longer than it would take to just finish the entire instance. Since your ultimatum, as he calls it, seems to be expressly designed to avoid just such an occurrence, shouldn't your response to him be "I'm glad you agree that my strategy works, I wish you well in your alternative approach."?Kurthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064568916740238502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-90002340484292281632010-01-29T23:18:33.340+01:002010-01-29T23:18:33.340+01:00@Phelbs: this is nonsense. Without displaying your...<i>@Phelbs: this is nonsense. Without displaying your requests and offering rewards for compliance and consequences for non-compliance there is no negotiation at all.</i><br /><br />It's not nonsense. It's Negotiation 101. "I blow everything up" is not a consequence. It's an ultimatum, and it leaves no room for compromise.<br /><br />I'm not easy on slackers. I don't heal people who stand in fires, I don't heal dps between pulls (sit down and eat, sucker) and if the group isn't following the strat, I stop healing. But if someone threatens "X or I leave" then I take them up on the "I leave" part and initiate a vote kick.Phelpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06270536870200063563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-46038221475938113122010-01-29T09:33:35.716+01:002010-01-29T09:33:35.716+01:00there is a DK blog somewhere where the DK was solo...there is a DK blog somewhere where the DK was soloing content. Forgot the name, but twas an interesting read.Emmanuel ISSALYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03807630171735271446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-89890033690892936632010-01-29T02:06:36.497+01:002010-01-29T02:06:36.497+01:00All this talk about right and wrong and profits an...All this talk about right and wrong and profits and time are out of place here. What it comes down too is "The Goblin Way" and if this particular article embodies it. A goblin would want the most emblems per hour. Since you can not boot someone until the 15 minute time is up, and most dungeons can be cleared in 15-20 minutes, slowing down and waiting to kick a person will lower your emblems / hour ratio.<br /><br />Gevlon is anti-social. Goblins are not always anti-social. After all, why would they keep talking to all these strangers and giving out quests if they only wanted to be left alone? Gevlon wants to stand out. He wants to be the one that is different from the group, no matter what.<br /><br />Lots of people wanted money but had none. He made some so he was different. Lots of people said soloing instances was hard to impossible, so he did it to be different. 90% of people seem to be happy with the XLFG, so as expected, he needs to be different.<br /><br />I don't know. I play a paladin tank. I have no issues waiting for dungeons, I have no issues with pulling as fast as I can without causing the healer to go OOM. I have no issues with clearing ever instances (some maybe not the last boss and a few trash pulls) before the timer runs out. If the timer runs out and the group sucks, I just leave and requeue...<br /><br />As a side note, I want to see Gevlon take his blood dk and solo some level 80 heroics. Just because most people hate blood, most people despise deathknights, and most people cant solo lvl 80 heroics. At least it would be something worth reading....Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04177509056672812846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-5656000548022048952010-01-28T15:51:29.683+01:002010-01-28T15:51:29.683+01:00@Phelbs: this is nonsense. Without displaying your...@Phelbs: this is nonsense. Without displaying your requests and offering rewards for compliance and consequences for non-compliance there is no negotiation at all.<br /><br />I mean how could one make an offer? "do X pls pls pls be nice m8s". <br /><br />Granted, for socials it might work better to sugar-coat it, but the message is still the same.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-18822991010034850062010-01-28T15:31:25.243+01:002010-01-28T15:31:25.243+01:00One glaring problem is that your negotiations invo...One glaring problem is that your negotiations involve an ultimatum. Ultimatums are negotiation killers, because any smart negotiator will immediately begin acting as if you have <i>already</i> carried out your ultimatum. (The highest example of this is that the US treats a nuclear ultimatum the same as an actual nuclear attack.)<br /><br />If I'm in the group, and you say, "you do X or I'll quit" and I don't support X, I'm going to be the one who initiates the vote kick against you. You are trying to take over the group with an ultimatum, and I won't allow that, or I have no negotiating power. It's better for me to have you gone, and go back to a negotiated outcome.Phelpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06270536870200063563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-1397191859502431952010-01-28T01:36:31.770+01:002010-01-28T01:36:31.770+01:00Paladin tanks always do more damage than equally g...Paladin tanks always do more damage than equally geared people. The warrior in the first part has level 70 gear and warriors are the class that scale best with gear.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-33347319662033428452010-01-27T23:12:10.883+01:002010-01-27T23:12:10.883+01:00actually made a spreadsheet to calculate time save...actually made a spreadsheet to calculate time saved by replacing, and while the actual time savings is generally under a minute for 500-1500 dps slackers up to 9 minutes remaining, the actual break even points are lower than I expected. Replacing a 1k dps with a 2k dps, you break even if you have only 2 minutes until completion. Even replacing a 1.5k dps with a 2k you break even at the 4 minute mark.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17037430684453161509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-38914826694393405312010-01-27T22:08:38.824+01:002010-01-27T22:08:38.824+01:00So your brilliant idea is to vastly prolong the ti...So your brilliant idea is to vastly prolong the time it takes you to complete instances, with no benefit to yourself. The goblinish ideal must have changed, I thought it was to produce max benefit to yourself regardless of how it affected others, but apparently it's to punish others regardless of cost or benefit to yourself.Zanathosnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-6661692168529165782010-01-27T21:21:00.884+01:002010-01-27T21:21:00.884+01:00I would suggest that you use the "less than t...I would suggest that you use the "less than the tank" rule on bosses only. I remember my aff lock in 3.0.0. E.g. If you are running with overgeared farming badges, then a DoT DPS has to use an inferior rotation or see trash die before many ticks. <br /><br />If the goal is justice, you care about whether someone is slacking, underperforming. If the goal is efficient, then you care about is DPS good enough so as keeping them is better than replacing.<br /><br />Person A is 2000 DPS in greens and performing at 99 percentile of what players in that gear would do. person B is 2100DPS in 213+ epics doing 20 percentile of what players in that gear would do. If your goal is badges, you would prefer to kick A, if your goal is "justice" then you would kick B. <br /><br />If you are trying to get badges, not reform the world, why do you care what gear the person has? Is a hardworking 1500DPS better than a slacking 1500DPS? Is 1400 DPS but less than the pally tank worse than 1350 that is ahead of the druid tank. If you are going to audit people, then it seems like a dps# is a better metric than the tank.<br /><br />i think you left out an option, just leave the group. Why pick sides, or expect that this will be the last drama?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-2607169730126704642010-01-27T19:31:20.574+01:002010-01-27T19:31:20.574+01:00@anonymous
Ball you're calculations are a bit...@anonymous<br /><br /><i>Ball you're calculations are a bit off ...</i><br /><br />You forgot to add in the damage your group would do while waiting for the replacement. You're going to keep killing while you replace instead of sitting and waiting.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17037430684453161509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-85112112105264250462010-01-27T17:23:21.468+01:002010-01-27T17:23:21.468+01:00Bro... I'm 43 and play my toons like a pro... ...Bro... I'm 43 and play my toons like a pro... when I tank I usually DPS #1 or #2... when I DPS I also score #1 or #2... but I also have a 10 year old son that loves WOW and works hard to get better at it every day... but he won't pull my numbers. There are kids out there playing and paying their hard earned allowances to do it (mowing, picking up dog poop, etc)... have some fun man... a low DPS can make your run more challenging. I don't mind a little heckling... that makes the game more interesting too... but save the cut throat for the real AFKers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-38573860810622168642010-01-27T17:05:11.890+01:002010-01-27T17:05:11.890+01:00Running the daily heroic is by far my least favori...Running the daily heroic is by far my least favorite thing in wow. <br />Unfortunately it is still worth running due to the rewards.<br /><br />Since I hate running heroics, and since time is the real currency of wow I want to finish my daily as quickly as possible. Unless somebody is wiping the group, or taking afk's it takes longer to kick somebody than it does to carry them.<br /><br />I do not care if everybody working equally hard. I just want to get in and out and start doing something I actually enjoy in the game. <br /><br />Yes this unintentionally helps m+S, but helping bads is a smaller evil than spending any extra time in a heroic dungeon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-76751413780712665732010-01-27T05:41:17.513+01:002010-01-27T05:41:17.513+01:00I just say "stop slacking" or "step...I just say "stop slacking" or "step it up, ".<br /><br />Takes 15 mins before you can kick someone, so its generally not worth kicking anyone unless its taking a lot of time for some reason(on of the longer heroics, tank or healer being afk, etc).<br /><br />I only do it if someone is afk - I often dont dare suggesting a vote kick either because you never know when you will get people against you.<br />I once got kicked for saying "gogo". Its not worth it if you want fast runs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-23073881393587239112010-01-27T02:29:46.962+01:002010-01-27T02:29:46.962+01:00Should you boost a tank that just reached 80 and g...Should you boost a tank that just reached 80 and gearing up by running heroics as dps for badges(which is much faster than doing normals until they have the best blue tank gear)?<br /><br />I geared my warrior tank this way and received a lot abuse because of my low dps (which was largely due to the fact that I priorised tanking items over dps items). A triumph badge geared tank will allow for a quicker run than one in blue gear (not to mention that it is my experience that alot of healers and dps will refuse to run a heroic with a blue geared tank). I would argue that boosting the new tank is worthwhile because you will get geared tank sooner which will reduce your queue times.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-61895869814272739402010-01-27T01:03:23.108+01:002010-01-27T01:03:23.108+01:00I had a read of the comments so far.
It's true...I had a read of the comments so far.<br />It's true that there's enough dps to balance out the leecher's.<br />The point is Gevlon like me and many others don't like leechers. <br /><br />Below are two true scenarios I came across last week.<br />Hunter in green/blue gear reaching 500dps. Go and get rep rewards, enchants, gems, work on rotations to compensate for crappy gear until 1k dps output at least.<br />Hunter in 5400 gearscore that's purple shiny gear that most casual gamers cannot attain, and the stupid pet did some work while the huntard stood back browsing the net or some other stupid non wow dps related act, averaging 1.5k dps.<br />Both cases deserve to be booted. Sadly the latter did not cos at least 2 people thought 1.5k dps in item lvl 245+ gear is adequate.<br /><br />Bottom line - I don't like leechers and I don't like them thinking we owe them charity. Some other wow blogger said this random heroic is like entering a contract with people you don't know but can only hope they live up to their contract of meeting their role obligation whether it'st anking, healing or dpsing. Do the best you can whether that's 1.3k dps or 6k dps. A level 80 dps character not reaching 1k dps in patch 3.3 WotLK is fail. A level 80 dps character in top end raid gear doing 1.5 dps is fail.Jujeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11075945120950670714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-34952256588423927502010-01-27T01:01:42.422+01:002010-01-27T01:01:42.422+01:00Arn't your actions Gevlon an example of an ape...Arn't your actions Gevlon an example of an ape sub-routine? You expend more effort to prevent him from getting what you feel he doesn't deserve, despite the fact he hadn't caused significant detrement to the run, other than taking advantage of the system and of better players.<br /><br />It is frustrating for sure. I could have been in a similar situation as you last night. I was running with a geared guild group of 4 from another server. I was the tank but 2 of their DPS relentlessly chainpulled, pulled aggro, facepulled, etc. <br /><br />I faced this situation: make a scene, stop trying to tank and let them die (which happened once) or shut up and just play, although it makes me have to work much harder. Their healer didnt seem to care what was happening either, let alone who he was healing.<br /><br />I chose the later, for fear I would just get kicked by these 4 friends, when I was short for time in the first place. In the end, the other warrior, sustaining 5k+ dps took more damage (32%) than I did trying to tank (30) when I usually shoot for 50-60% damage taken.Wigginnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-38391243228704534402010-01-27T00:38:44.550+01:002010-01-27T00:38:44.550+01:00I also adopt the if you can't beat them join t...I also adopt the if you can't beat them join them approach. As a dps, I will afk more often and auto attack every now and again. As a healer, it's very much either this fool/tool goes or I don't heal. I have been booted from group quite a few times for this approach, from people who rather tolerate leeching or underperformance. Usually though the group sees no point in carrying the leecher. <br />There's also this thing that Blizzard should address where undergeared people cannot select for e.g. HHoR but if they hit random dungeon they have a chance of entering HHor.Jujeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11075945120950670714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-33128226684763082492010-01-26T23:40:36.091+01:002010-01-26T23:40:36.091+01:00If someone is pulling 500 dps, chances are if you ...If someone is pulling 500 dps, chances are if you initiate the votekick people will just kick him. If you say all of this snobby "I demand that you kick him or I will go afk" stuff beforehand, chances are people will start to get annoyed at you and sympathize with the moron. If your only objective is to get results, then don't make a big deal out of kicking someone.Deathturtle Coilfang-USnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-84369637173691121792010-01-26T21:24:09.596+01:002010-01-26T21:24:09.596+01:00Ball you're calculations are a bit off ...
Gi...Ball you're calculations are a bit off ...<br /><br />Given your parameters, 9K DPS, 5M left in run, there is approx 2700K damage left. Upping your team DPS to 11K will reduce that time to do 2700K damage to 4.06 minutes. BUT you now have to add in replacement time, which is said to be 1m, which then puts ya at 5.06m. So replacing the DPS in that particular case COST you 3.6s ... a proverbial wash.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-57078406504707644902010-01-26T20:53:14.679+01:002010-01-26T20:53:14.679+01:00Anonymous poster 4,
'Nob'is British slang...Anonymous poster 4,<br /><br />'Nob'is British slang for a 'dick'.<br /><br />Also I agree with the non-slacker dps here. I want my badges and it's not my job to teach scrubs how to play or enforce non-slacking behaviour.<br /><br />Any truly awful players go on my ignore list so I don't pug with them again. <br /><br />True goblins are often indistinguishable from M&S because we say all the 'nice' things while retaining goblin behaviour.cheesewhiznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-59314367901401536612010-01-26T20:32:14.281+01:002010-01-26T20:32:14.281+01:00Aren't you being 'moral' by starting t...Aren't you being 'moral' by starting this crusade against M&S instead of just getting your badges in less time? Obviously your intentions are great: you wan't to stop rushing M&S. But your actions won't put an end to the M&S. It's just a waste of time. The M&S will continue to exist, no matter what you do. Accept this fact, abuse their stupidity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-70587476520839158762010-01-26T19:38:39.324+01:002010-01-26T19:38:39.324+01:00The strategy you suggest might work, but I do thin...The strategy you suggest might work, but I do think that the more likely outcome (since the majority has already voted not to kick based on performance) is that you will be kicked for being anti-social. The suggestion of quietly joining the slacker may prove more effective, and has the added benefit of being less work. On a large scale it could also encourage more performance based kicking as more and more groups get noticably slower due to the slackers and goblins.<br /><br />Wanting to be fair, punish and reform others, while useful in some circumstances and making you feel better, are not very goblinish. This means that the calculation in your head should be Time lost for replacement<Time gained by assuming an average dps replacement. For example, if you're 5 minutes away from finishing, your group is doing (3k, 3k, 2k, 1k) 9k, after replacement you're looking at (3k, 3k, 3k, 2k) 11k. Take out a minute for the replacement to be found and run to you and your net change in total time to completion becomes (5m@9k=2700kdam) - (1m@8k=480k) / (11k) + 1m = 4.36 minutes.<br /><br />It seems trivial, but on a 15-20 minute run, that is 3-4% increase, even after suffering through most of the run with dead weight. I think I might try a simple spreadsheet that I can tab out to and then announce to the group "we would save x minutes if we kicked this person now" and see how that goes.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17037430684453161509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-49294303540111173602010-01-26T19:37:16.360+01:002010-01-26T19:37:16.360+01:00This is the Goblin blog sooo....
Pretty simple re...This is the Goblin blog sooo....<br /><br />Pretty simple really, time is money (or in this case EoT's), as has been pointed out by Gevlon on many occasions. The baddie(s) aren't in your guild, probably not even on your server, they really have no impact on you other than this 15m run through a heroic.<br /><br />Bottom line, is time spent convincing group to replace bad dps < time spent continuing with said poor dps to finish the instance (and also risking alienating the tank/healer and hence increasing time spent even more).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com