tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post7745465036931290694..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: M&S vs ninjaGevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-32343518846338946322011-06-06T19:27:10.041+02:002011-06-06T19:27:10.041+02:00The more I read about your definition of "soc...The more I read about your definition of "socials," the more I think that there's another category here that's being missed by your labeling. <br /><br />The play-for-fun and play-to-win page you've written I think does a better job of describing some basic differences in play style, but I feel like I fit none of your categories (which is the point of my entire blog). I certainly play-to-win. Some things I do feel are "cheap," but usually I just implement them myself, and I'm certainly a fast learner, a researcher about my class and boss strategies, etc. So clearly I'm not a "social."<br /><br />However, I certainly have more sympathy for "socials" than you do, making me seem like a social, though that doesn't mean I like to play with them; one of the guilds I quit was because my buddy had spoken to a rogue who'd asked for help with her dps for two hours just to find her leveling her fishing on an alt the next day. However, I don't think they shouldn't be allowed to play the game the way they want; I just don't want them interfering with me doing the same. I realize this exact overlap is why you feel the way you feel.<br /><br />I'm not sure what you'd call the group you're in, or how broad the borders of that group are. I know we have Ms&Ss, and I know we have socials, but what are the other categories? Some posts on this topic might be interesting.<br /><br />Also, it's ridiculous to say that we can't know people's true intentions (which I agree with) but then to blanket the motivations of all socials into one short phrase - unless that's the sole definition of a social - people who play to feel good about themselves - in which case a lot of other assumptions that you've made about socials have to be reconsidered.<br /><br />How about a post solely on defining these otherwise amorphous categories? Or perhaps there's an old one from before my time you could direct me to?Stubbornhttp://sheepthediamond.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-67777542458202640142011-06-01T07:46:47.482+02:002011-06-01T07:46:47.482+02:00To me, the difference between ninjas and M&S a...To me, the difference between ninjas and M&S are simply that ninjas are prone to bans whereas M&S are not.<br /><br />I'm probably a social, but when someone ninjas my loot, I just take down the names of the ninjas and the other people in my group and make a report.<br /><br />I must confess that I am more tolerant of M&S, provided they are polite. Perhaps, as you say, it helps me feel superior to them by helping them out.BBQnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-53501622319746642902011-05-31T19:29:53.980+02:002011-05-31T19:29:53.980+02:00Comparing shunning ninjas to prohibition is ridicu...Comparing shunning ninjas to prohibition is ridiculous. Prohibition didn't work because people at large didn't agree with it. Laws against theft work pretty well because most people agree that theft is bad.<br /><br />Rules against ninjaing work pretty well too, which is not to say they eliminate it completely.Sthennohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05429676469805661834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-28569673081478532592011-05-31T17:08:35.995+02:002011-05-31T17:08:35.995+02:00"Inevitably, I see ridiculous statements like..."Inevitably, I see ridiculous statements like this. How about those who just hit 85? [...]"<br /><br />Most likely we're from different realms, but it is ridiculously easy to get VP capped every week which is the easiest way to get good gear allowing you to perform better with the same set of skills. If it is your main which just hit 85, then you've been what I call slacking. You have not played the game from the start of the expansion. Try again in 4.2. Putting effort in getting a lot of VP at the end of a patch is unwise since soon you'll get all the ilvl 359 for free (with JP) anyway. Why bother? Earn gold instead. If its an alt, why would you care? If it was earlier in the expansion where people (including M&S) weren't running in full ilvl 359, and VP boots were still worth something, yes, then I'd agree that VP are still worth a lot. Right now, not anymore.<br /><br />Now, what you can disagree with is the definition of 'slacking'. I assume, yes assume, that people want to get into HC raids in 4.0 and 4.1 hence I call it slacking because getting ilvl 359 gear is the easiest way (besides knowing your class and rotation) to fully clear the content including the 2 harder end bosses Al Akir and Nefarian. Once you've done that, you can get to the HC raids. Don't want to put effort in getting ilvl 359 gear? Again, no problem. Don't get VP, get JP-capped, and wait till 4.2. Then you start HC raiding. Exactly how Blizzard designed it, btw. They want us to play the current HC raids in 4.2. Hopefully, you cleared the normal content by the time that is released, or you basically missed raiding on your main in patch 4.0 & 4.1. Since all mains are ilvl 359 geared, the nerfs to the normal raid content primarily concern alts.<br /><br />The current Need before Greed system is still quite flawed. Here is another flaw a guildie of mine had to endure yesterday on his priest whilst leveling. It isn't big, but its been existing forever. A DK cannot need on intellect plate, but a mage can need on spirit cloth. Why does Blizzard allow this type of ninjaing? Spirit is useless for a mage. Out of combat they eat cookies. In combat they use mana gems, evocation, and mage ward.<br /><br />"If a schizophrenic killed his daughter during an episode their is no good intent but the cause was out of his hand so is prob going to get a lighter sentence (relative to the first guy)."<br /><br />While I believe this to be true remember we're not all in the same jurisdictions. In my jurisdiction I'd say a lighter sentence while on the other hand also a higher chance to get involuntary commitment. Which, at least where I'm living, is very hard to get out of alive hence suspects avoid to get that sentence like the plague. They'd rather sit longer in jail.<br /><br />"This is the reason why prohibition doesn't work as all your doing is prevent the action not the intent. this is because intent is only an in between stage, between thinking of something and carrying it out.<br /><br />This is why it is stupid to condemn ninjas."<br /><br />This is why prohibition _alone_ doesn't work. This is why jail time _alone_ doesn't work. You have to put time and effort into the subject to make sure they don't repeat the same mistake.<br /><br />How do we cure the ninja? Currently, we report him to Blizzard who takes away the loot, and gives him a penalty. He wasted his time and effort to scam other people, and he is reprimanded for his actions.<br /><br />Perhaps we should make his loot pink when it was ninjaed. He can keep it, but in his inventory and character it'd look pink. Everyone would recognize the ninja as a ninja. Or we make the loot so easily available that everyone has it, so its not cool to ninja it anymore. Sounds fun, both wouldn't work well though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-85316681397980213332011-05-31T13:04:49.720+02:002011-05-31T13:04:49.720+02:00I'm with the ninja here.
If you don't agr...I'm with the ninja here.<br /><br />If you don't agree to loot rules in advance, then it makes you the "M&S".<br /><br />If you agree to loot rules in advance, and he still takes the item, that doesn't make him stupid. He probably just doesn't agree with the loot rules and has no other way of getting the gear he wants, because the loot rules are just arbitrary scrub bullshit anyway.<br /><br />Go raiding with your friends or suck it up. The only thing that says someone "can't" take the loot, for whatever reason they want, is when the "need" button is disabled by Blizzard.Cyrellhttp://iamascrub.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-20648786008957557632011-05-31T08:29:01.463+02:002011-05-31T08:29:01.463+02:00@chewy My point this whole time has been this &quo...@chewy My point this whole time has been this "We should be looking at the causes of their behaviour not their intent, as that is only an in between stage, between thinking of something and carrying it out".<br /><br />The reason I chose that example was because it showed that their intentions didn't matter as they both lead to the same outcome. The reason for different sentences is not because of their intent it's because of the cause behind it. I f a man kills his daughter to protect the honor for the rest of the family his intentions was good but his faulty thinking is the problem and so is going to get a harsh sentence. If a schizophrenic killed his daughter during an episode their is no good intent but the cause was out of his hand so is prob going to get a lighter sentence (relative to the first guy).<br /><br />I could use smoking as an example, to illustrate my point. if you prevent a smoker from having a cigarette you prevent him smoking, but you haven't prevented him from intending to smoke. the second he gets a hold of a cigarette he will smoke. If you want to stop him from smoking at all you must look at the causes of his intent, and remove them. e.g. if he is addictive then cure his addiction, or substitute cigarettes for patches. by removing the cause for intent you stop the behaviour.<br /><br />This is the reason why prohibition doesn't work as all your doing is prevent the action not the intent. this is because intent is only an in between stage, between thinking of something and carrying it out.<br /><br />This is why it is stupid to condemn ninjas. you are merely preventing them from the act of ninjing, not from the desire to. hatred only works if the reason they want to ninja is to get loot for respect, if not then people waste their times complaining.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-27923592549131374832011-05-31T07:29:07.098+02:002011-05-31T07:29:07.098+02:00"The ninja wanted to take away the loot, whil..."The ninja wanted to take away the loot, while the M&S wanted to help to get it."<br /><br />I do not really agree with that statement.<br /><br />The M&S i carried (and yeah, i'm bad) are most likely ninja looter or not really social according what you say.<br /><br />Several times i totaly carried M&S (i'm saying it again, i'm bad) and the only loot i needed, they ninjaed it without regret.<br /><br />And they were obviously not wanting to help any raid, just get the "epiclootlolbecauseit'sbetterthanwhatihave" (their dps never got better with the gear though)Jennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-58234744483758419022011-05-31T04:42:55.983+02:002011-05-31T04:42:55.983+02:00People rage more at "ninjas" because the...People rage more at "ninjas" because they are unexpected. You can recognize a M&S from far away, and know what to expect from them. A ninja looks just like any other social player, until suddenly you win the lottery (e.g. loot you can use drops) and the ninja "steals" the lotto ticket on your way to turning it in. By definition, you never know a ninja until they take the loot; if they called dibs on the piece of loot ahead of time you could bargain, drop raid, or decide to still raid as though the loot will not drop (even if it does).<br /><br />Re: Intention, whether or not we can ever objectively know someone's intentions is irrelevant. If the police catch a guy sneaking outside your house with a flashlight and a set of lockpicks, a consensus by a jury can be reached as to the intention of the man. If intentions are entirely unknowable or unassignable by others, the word itself loses all meaning.Azurielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16581263347888757710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-91752832316223610712011-05-31T00:36:14.140+02:002011-05-31T00:36:14.140+02:00@anon 19:27
If it wasn't the point why did yo...@anon 19:27<br /><br />If it wasn't the point why did you use it to illustrate your case ? <br /><br />In your new example intent still exists, intent to defend ones family or intent to commit unsolicited murder.<br /><br />I understand that you're trying to separate behavior from intent but one doesn't negate the other. Your previous post stated that intent doesn't matter whereas it clearly does, otherwise why would legal systems consider it as mitigation ?<br /><br />The previous contributors who highlighted that intent should be considered hadn't missed the point, intent is what distinguishes the ninja from the M&S. You can argue that behavior should also be considered and I wouldn't disagree but you can't dismiss intent as unimportant or missing the point.chewynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-53107819424383188542011-05-30T22:43:03.408+02:002011-05-30T22:43:03.408+02:00"If you still need VP for your MS and OS you ..."If you still need VP for your MS and OS you have been slacking past months."<br /><br />Inevitably, I see ridiculous statements like this. How about those who just hit 85? So on and so forth. The discussions here are usually good, until we get to blanket statements like this that believe EVERYONE plays the game at the same time/pace.<br /><br />As to the main topic - I have the ability (and often exercise it) to kick a M&S BEFORE he ruins my run. The ninja tends to ruin it when it is "too late" to do anything. That's why I dislike "ninjas" more than M&S. There's very little warning before the ninja pulls one over on you. The M&S typically comes with SEVERAL warning flags.Jennanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-55016923016897622162011-05-30T19:55:08.394+02:002011-05-30T19:55:08.394+02:00"Most of us lack skills (and/or time and in s..."Most of us lack skills (and/or time and in some cases some additional conditions, like schedule to raid with equally competent players) not gear. The proof of it: the top guilds and players."<br /><br />Indeed. Personal and/or group skill. The top guilds advanced quicker due to combination of effort and skill (using the same gear as you did, but getting further). Some M&S convince themselves it must be effort (you no-lifers!!), but this is only to make themselves not feel like a bad player.<br /><br />"@ the Anonymous who things Sinestra will be puggable in 4.2."<br /><br />Thinks.<br /><br />No, not right away, and not by the average PUG, but you'd be surprised how far some PUGs get. The PUG lead by top guild on my realm had progress 8/13 on 25m HC. That was a few weeks ago. I know only normals will be nerfed, but remember that in 4.2 people will be running around in next tier gear. That itself is a big nerf. When I raided with that PUG in WOTLK trinkets and HC tier pieces were reserved to regulars. To become a regular, all you had to do was show up and perform. Everyone can verify this information. Simply look up "Immersion PUG" on Google.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-83401961121652135772011-05-30T19:52:54.618+02:002011-05-30T19:52:54.618+02:00"In LFG there is no such thing as "MS &g..."In LFG there is no such thing as "MS > OS" or "I did more to bring down the bos so I am entitled more"."<br /><br />In LFG there is Need before Greed with the social consensus being MS > OS. It is generally frowned upon if you do not follow this, but it is not an offense which can get one banned. This, and other social consensus on loot rules, blurs the discussion between a person who ninjas and gets reprimanded and someone who does not follow one or more social consensus of loot rules. Both of these types of loot disagreements are referred to as ninja, but while one is an offense according to Blizzard's written rules (forum post), the other one is not.<br /><br />Blizzard will make BoE -> BoP in 4.2, but they do not allow us to kick M&S easier or implement some kind of MS > OS system. See:<br />http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/177653/anti-ninja-loot-system<br /><br />The current system favors hybrids: Druids, Paladins most -> averages for Priest, Shaman, Death Knight, Warrior-> and Hunter, Rogue, Mage & Warlock least. I've seen paladin tanks needing on both retribution gear 'for their off spec' as well as needing on holy gear 'for their off spec'.<br /><br />As a result, enchanting is a good profession for a druid or paladin. Even more so for a druid or paladin tank, and especially in the first days of 4.1 with high demand and price for maelstrom crystals. I believe this is also why we see so many paladin bots.<br /><br />"And how freaking relevant can a single drop be? Is that the one drop that will make you do HC vs not doing them?"<br /><br />There are exceptional drops which are hard to get. Tier pieces, exceptional trinkets. You simply want a fair chance getting the loot, and it usually requires some effort. If it would not require some effort, you'd already have the loot, or you've been uncaring or extremely unlucky with loot drops and/or rolls. A drop like Shard of Woe has a big impact on your spec and performance, and so does T11 4 set bonus. You do make a fair point: if you stop caring about your performance increase, and start having a serendipitous mode of operandus, you will feel less down when you don't get the loot (did not drop, lost roll, got ninjaed, did not kill boss due to M&S). After you killed a boss for the umptieth time this can get quite difficult to keep up. Personally, on an alt, I can easily feel this way. On my main, not. This is why on my main, I raid with my guild. My chances of getting the loot I want is higher because we have less M&S than the average PUG, because the chance of a ninja is slim (loot council consisting of reasonably smart people), and so on. I have to say I have not received certain pieces of gear because of "MS > OS", and had a few arguments about this, but these have been all fixed and are minor compared to both the drama I endured in different guilds, PUGs, as well as the drama I read in the comments outlined by others here.<br /><br />"The ninja can't take away the reliable source of income (JP/VP/etc) just the bonus source of income (loot)"<br /><br />If you still need VP for your MS and OS you have been slacking past months. There is no reason you should still need VP for either your main spec and off spec. My main is a druid and _I_ have been slacking in terms of obtaining VP _yet_ have a full T11 set for MS _and_ OS _and_ even have a set for tanking requiring a simple respec + 3 different glyphs (rendering a total cost of: 33 + 3 * 10 gold). The only use I see for VP right now is the BoE boots. On my realm, they don't sell well anymore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-26070879680938847702011-05-30T19:27:10.390+02:002011-05-30T19:27:10.390+02:00@chewy I understand the different legal charges bu...@chewy I understand the different legal charges but that is not the point. The point is is that whether someone kills someone as they threatened their family or someone kills someone because he doesn't like them. They both saw the victim as a threat and disregarded the fact that they were a person.<br /><br />the key difference should not be intent but rather how they think afterwards. the "good" person most likely regains empathy, whereas the "bad" person doesn't not.<br /><br />We should be looking at the causes of their behaviour not their intent, as that is only an in between stage, between thinking of something and carrying it out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-37860666637507933502011-05-30T18:17:56.988+02:002011-05-30T18:17:56.988+02:00Apparently some of your readers fail to read patch...Apparently some of your readers fail to read patch notes.<br /><br />@ the Anonymous who things Sinestra will be puggable in 4.2.<br /><br />The nerfs only apply to normal mode content. Sinestra's mechanics are too unforgiving for any pugs with the appropriate gear. Try again in 1-2 more tiers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-2087853102800027372011-05-30T17:42:55.382+02:002011-05-30T17:42:55.382+02:00I think the attitude towards ninjas does have a so...I think the attitude towards ninjas does have a social motivation, but not in a bad way.<br /><br />Everyone considering the problems of A run with A ninja aren't thinking big picture. Yes, you can avoid ninja behavior, and yes, the behavior of a ninja arguably doesn't harm you in any given run as much as a really bad player. But coming down hard on ninjas is intended to discourage ninja behavior overall. Not just from this ninja, this time...but for all potential ninjas, all of the time.<br /><br />Most people instinctively know that society only works to the extent that most people follow the same set of rules. Ignoring "ninja" behavior just leads to more of the same, to the point where it creates problems you can't ignore.Briannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-31948396933448852202011-05-30T16:53:41.334+02:002011-05-30T16:53:41.334+02:00I'm a little surprised you compared a thief to...I'm a little surprised you compared a thief to an unproductive person and decided the thief was the better of the two. That doesn't work in games or in real life.<br /><br />Most new small businesses fail in their first year. A person starting a business takes on a lot of risk. The argument being made here is basically that a person should react equally to their business failing as to it succeeding and having their accountant embezzle all of their earnings.<br /><br />When you join a PuG raid you agree to take a lot of chances. You might not beat the boss, if you do win there might be no drops you want, and if something does drop for you someone else might get it. If your raid fails, if your loot doesn't drop, or if someone else wins the roll then that's all what you signed up for.<br /><br />A real ninja (which are admittedly very rare these days because people don't do PuG raids on free for all or group loot) is a thief.Sthennohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05429676469805661834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-788955371156073152011-05-30T15:12:20.604+02:002011-05-30T15:12:20.604+02:00@Anon 11:54
If someone killed someone with good i...@Anon 11:54<br /><br /><i>If someone killed someone with good intentions, he still committed murder the same as someone with bad intentions.</i><br /><br />This isn't true in most legal systems. A charge of murder can and is pleaded as manslaughter based on the intention. There are degrees of the crime distinguished by intent.chewynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-24751541780603855712011-05-30T14:10:54.974+02:002011-05-30T14:10:54.974+02:00"The ninja takes a week of my game time and d..."The ninja takes a week of my game time and destroys it. If it takes me 12 weeks to gear up to do hmodes, he just ruined this week for me, I might as well have skipped the lockout and gone outside." (nightgerbil)<br /><br />Already stated elsewhere but to stress the point: you should then consider reporting Blizzard since their drop chances are gimping you much more than any ninja.<br /><br />The ninja can't take away the reliable source of income (JP/VP/etc) just the bonus source of income (loot) (and then you can learn and only be fooled by him/her once). The bad player will take away your total income (or at least will make your work harder for that same income). Like someone already stated part of the problem is that people then see the loot not as bonus but as income. It isn't. It is a bonus.<br /><br />Personally? Give me a ninja everyday (even a full raid of them) which will be competent players over a bunch of not so competent players. He takes my bonus... I keep the income and progress (almost) exactly the same.<br /><br />And how freaking relevant can a single drop be? Is that the one drop that will make you do HC vs not doing them? Unlikely. There are very few cases where a single drop makes such an impact of your performance (there are cases however like that... personally I would rather have better game design there too).<br /><br />Most of us lack skills (and/or time and in some cases some additional conditions, like schedule to raid with equally competent players) not gear. The proof of it: the top guilds and players.Ihodael of Darnassusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-23614636939422616412011-05-30T13:58:56.009+02:002011-05-30T13:58:56.009+02:00As people have stated before, ninjaing is somethin...As people have stated before, ninjaing is something you can reliably avoid by thinking ahead and asking about loot rules. I can't really feel too much sympathy with someone who desperately wants a certain set of purple pixels to the extent of actively ganking someone who deprives him of it for a week, but not enough to ask in chat beforehand about the loot rules.<br /><br />On the other hand, though, it is true that the average terrible player is more likely to hurt you than the average ninja. Assume you're playing with an idiot who doesn't know to run away from the raid when he's the bomb on Baron Geddon. (This would be me back in vanilla.) Say there's three bombs during the raid. In today's 10m raiding environment, this translates into a (0.9)^3<80% chance of him not becoming the bomb and hence the raid not failing due do him, so alone he causes the raid to have a 20% chance of wiping. <br /><br />Now, say the boss drops two pieces of loot you want from a pool of 10, of which you want one. Then the chance of your loot dropping is 20%. If a ninja rolls against you, you should get at least one other people to roll with you to deny him the loot if you shout loud enough, so the chance of him winning the roll is 34% if you get someone else to roll with you and 50% otherwise. Multiply this by the 20% chance of your loot dropping to get the chance of the ninja stealing it. <br /><br />Hence depending on your assumptions you end up with less than a 10% chance that a ninja actually denies you loot given that he is in your raid. Compare this to the >25% chance of an imagined terrible player wiping the raid (which would likely cause the raid to rapidly dissolve in a flurry of "g2g", "playing with friends now bb" if you are in the average pug) and also the fact that it's far more likely for you to miss out on loot due to a bad player than due to a ninja.<br /><br />I freely admit to several problems with this - probability isn't additive, and I pulled most numbers out of a hat, but I think for most reasonable numbers you'll end up with the conclusion that removing all ninjas won't increase the chance of you defeating the boss and getting your loot as much as teaching all players the obvious, need-to-know mechanics of the fight will.<br /><br />As a sidenote I also doubt the claims of "bad players can learn, while ninjas are always evil". If someone hasn't wanted to become a better player in the last 200 hours he put into the game, why should you telling him he's terrible convince him otherwise when it's far more convenient for him to just dismiss you as a bad elitist jerk and any indisputable failings on his part as bad luck? (After all it's not his fault that he stood in the fire just as he was tabbing out to check his mail, that could happen to anyone.) On the other hand, you can fend off all intelligent ninjas by simply confirming loot rules in raid chat and mentioning that GMs have explicitly stated that this makes them enforcable, and all stupid ninjas can be solved by notifying a GM.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-68237963090127151672011-05-30T12:57:23.029+02:002011-05-30T12:57:23.029+02:00Ninjaing is just a problem with game mechanics tha...Ninjaing is just a problem with game mechanics that needs fixing. No need/greed rolls = no loot ninjas. You can't rely on random internet aquaintances to behave honourably - surely everyone must know that by now.<br /><br />GW2 appears to have a sensible way of dealing with this so there's not much point in outlining one here.Roqhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11432135488660187991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-63486366249781985772011-05-30T12:29:59.285+02:002011-05-30T12:29:59.285+02:00A tip to avoid ninjas: before entering a pug group...A tip to avoid ninjas: before entering a pug group, CLEARLY demand a WRITTEN explanation of the rules.<br />If they do that and break them, a GM has the right to intervene but only if the rules are clearly stated in in-game chat.Energybombnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-52172448661308460462011-05-30T11:54:08.531+02:002011-05-30T11:54:08.531+02:00A lot of people are making the same interpretatio...A lot of people are making the same interpretations that has missed the point.<br /><br />A ninja, a M&S, and bad luck with loot drops all amount to the same thing yet one is condemned more so then the others.<br /><br />the reason everyone is stating is the intention, yet that should not be treated with anymore or any less expectations. If someone killed someone with good intentions, he still committed murder the same as someone with bad intentions.<br /><br />when different intentions lead to the same outcome the intentions shouldn't matter, yet by the comments people treat them differently.<br /><br />the reasoning why I have already outlined and don't wish to do the repeat it all over again.<br /><br />If someone lacks empathy which we could argue is a ninja then condemning them won't make a difference, as they wouldn't care about your opinion of them.<br /><br />M&S and socials do care what you think of them so it would have an affect to condemn them for their behavior. Yet because of social ideals people act in the opposite and get nothing done.<br /><br />Proof? People have been complaining and condemning ninjas since before wow and yet it still occurs, despite the negative associations that comes with doing so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-47024323411438139882011-05-30T11:31:44.804+02:002011-05-30T11:31:44.804+02:00@Anon "I really do not follow MS > OS in s...@Anon "I really do not follow MS > OS in such case. Whether this example or any of the above is ninjaing is entirely up to debate"<br /><br />In my definintion a ninja is someone who breaks the rules and obtains loot which he was not entitled to have.<br /><br />In LFG there is no such thing as "MS > OS" or "I did more to bring down the bos so I am entitled more". That's why I stressed the point that before accusing someone of being a ninja you first need to have crystal clear which rules actually apply, and not make accusations or throwing tantrums based on your (wrong) assumptions.<br /><br />The fact that the current LFD rules could be perfected is a different issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-60752101116568459222011-05-30T11:31:33.215+02:002011-05-30T11:31:33.215+02:00or as the famous story about the frog and the scor...or as the famous story about the frog and the scorpion, The scorpion wants to get over the river but cant swim. So he begs a frog to take him over. But the frog refuses says that the scorpionwill just sting him. The scorpion then says why would i do that we will both die then. So the frog agrees to take the scorpion over the water. Halfway across the scorpion suddenly stings the frog, and as they both are drowning the frog asks why. And the scorpion says "its in my nature to kill you".pippen1001https://www.blogger.com/profile/12005826838598864800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-20561759749523557962011-05-30T10:57:29.611+02:002011-05-30T10:57:29.611+02:00The reason why "ninja looters" cause so ...The reason why "ninja looters" cause so much hate is the "ninja" takes not only the small % chance for drop but he takes your drop after you won the small % chance.<br /><br />If something has only small chance to drop and it actually drops it means you already were lucky. And when someone steals it right under your hands its worth more than just one reset. And its more painful like to loose something you have worked hard for.<br /><br />Plus you can kick = punish M&S. You can't punish "ninja looter".Juminanoreply@blogger.com