tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post4532371475112503650..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: Are the MMOs games?Gevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-765986712937327532012-09-29T22:30:17.785+02:002012-09-29T22:30:17.785+02:00Ermmm ... many English words have more than one me...Ermmm ... many English words have more than one meaning, Gevlon. Not all games are competitive.<br /><br />From Bing.com's online dictionary:<br /><br />game [ gaym ] <br /><br />1) something played for fun: an activity that people participate in, together or on their own, for fun<br /><br />2) competitive activity with rules: a sporting or other activity in which players compete against each other by following a fixed set of rules<br /> <br /><br />Kristophrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08370888276707569365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-85283152115308783572012-09-29T09:47:14.342+02:002012-09-29T09:47:14.342+02:00Just a small comment on WoW levelling.
As you may...Just a small comment on WoW levelling.<br /><br />As you may have experienced in MOP, due to mob tagging there is a large amount of player v player competition.<br /><br />You will see players using all the speed boosts and tagging abilities available to their characters (requires more skill for melee than ranged classes that have spammable instant dots) to round up all mobs in sight and then of course they are very much at risk of dying if they don't play well.<br /><br />Dying results in your resources (the mobs) being taken by another player. Failing to tag mobs comes with a punishment in the form of having to run around for a minute or two waiting for respawns - and you may lose again.<br /><br />Pretty much what would happen in a real "game" where you die and have to restart the level.<br /><br />Unlike the old 8bit home computing days, most modern games have infinite continues which for me plays much the same as infinite mob respawns. You can succeed eventually but you will be punished many times before you reach that point.Coralinanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-69637428720330588772012-09-29T06:19:09.413+02:002012-09-29T06:19:09.413+02:00@Azuriel: there is huge difference between having ...<i>@Azuriel: there is huge difference between having a 0.00000000001% chance to win by doing random moves (like in Poker) and having 100% chance.</i><br /><br />Come now, there is no reason to use junk percentages to prop up an argument. Nevermind how if we are talking about Texas Hold'em Poker, the percentage win rate is not really any different than WoW assuming you do not randomly Fold (which would be the equivalent of logging out of WoW, IMO). <br /><br />Besides, people DO die while leveling. If you randomly kill grey mobs, no XP is gained. And again, at the other end of the spectrum there are more efficient leveling methods, moves, and levels of mastery. I mean, are you suggesting there is no difference between your EVE skill point scheme and someone else who just trains randomly? The difference can be counted in *years* can it not?<br /><br /><i>Now imagine that you watch a video of someone else leveling up in WoW. That's a movie, not a game, right?</i><br /><br />It is a bit of a tautology, but yes, I agree "watching a video" is not playing a game.<br /><br /><i>Since you simply can't fail in leveling in WoW, you playing the game would make the very same images visible on the screen as in the previous movie.</i><br /><br />Non sequitur. Even if I accept your premise that there is no failure states in leveling, at every point of interaction you can choose a different set of actions that do legitimately result in different outcomes. You can pause or rewind or skip scenes in a movie, but the protagonist never goes through the left door instead of the right. If you level in one area, you will get X drops instead of Y. I could level solely by gathering, or dungeon runs, or PvP. I could level by questing or by simply killing mobs.<br /><br />You can suggest that WoW leveling is easy or trivial or inevitable. And it may very well be all those things. But you cannot rationally compare the interaction necessary to get to the level cap to controlling a DVD.<br /><br />Your ultimate intent here is simply silly. Are my tax returns a game? I can turn them into one! And <i>even if I agree</i> that WoW leveling isn't a game, it is largely irrelevant since I can turn it into one by shifting my goals. Remember the "Iron Man" leveling challenge? There are thousands of variations one can do, if the leveling experience itself is insufficient entertainment.Azurielhttp://inanage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-45428417501020757152012-09-28T20:26:56.808+02:002012-09-28T20:26:56.808+02:00From your sep-26th post (its addendum after the ma...From your sep-26th post (its addendum after the main post):<br /><br />"Mist of Pandaria is out and I'm <b>playing</b>"<br /><br />So what now? Honestly, if you make such a fuss about proper definitions and use of words you better be precise yourself first. <br /><br />The reast of us will still use "playing WoW" or generally refer to "computer games" and be perfectly understandable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-39843095892025816852012-09-28T19:34:48.616+02:002012-09-28T19:34:48.616+02:001) No MMO is by most definitions a game. What if ...1) No MMO is by most definitions a game. What if there were a button in the WoW BG/Arena or EVE fleet fight that was "kill all the enemy without cost or risk to me." Nobody would press the button in a sport or game. Almost everyone would press the button in real life or EVE and only slightly/no fewer in WoW.<br /><br />2) I don't see how you can ever make MMOs into games or why you would want to. Certainly the EVE player base would resist making it a game more. Turning MMOs into games would cost the publishers money. Nobody expects that their opponents chess pieces are more powerful if they have been playing for 3 years. Developers have a financial interest in subscribers feeling some sense of growth.<br /><br />3) Big MMOs are cafeterias not a single food. "Make WoW harder" makes increasingly less sense. The financial incentive is to make *something* that more people want to do. MoP is starting that with adding perhaps their hardest PvE ever (Challenge Mode) along with their easiest. Some people make do both or neither. But if you are top the gold leaderboard, you still benefit, since Blizzard and thus the game benefit, if their are millions of Pet Battle only customers.<br /><br />4) I could argue that EVE's HTFU culture makes it the least like a game of any MMO. Fair fights? Honesty? new players on equal footing? clear victory conditions? <br /><br />5) If I am a developer and paying customers consider X fun, then it is a valuable feature addition to the product I am selling - independent of any game definition. <br /><br />6) It seems to me that what differentiates MMOs from "games" like WoT or LoL is all the focus and effort on not having game features. Why WoW or EVE is labeled an MMO and not WoT or LoL is for all the features deliberately designed to not make them "games": persistence, character progression, no victory conditions.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-22323964996707694242012-09-28T14:18:40.187+02:002012-09-28T14:18:40.187+02:00Gevlon, you and Micko almost seem to be coming to ...Gevlon, you and Micko almost seem to be coming to a similar conclusion, but from different courses. If WoW is made harder, it will increase subscriber numbers, which is the concomitant conclusion you have reached in Eve about making it more dangerous.<br /><br />Anecdotal evidence would suggest that leveling and 5 man dungeons were harder in vanilla WoW. The death penalty (although trivial compared to EQ) was harsher than now. In addition 40 player raids dragged in more players than the 10s and 25s of WoW in 2012.<br /><br />Are you suggesting increased WoW subscibers on a more vanilla style game?<br /><br />ArthurAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-47468109186059012282012-09-28T14:10:43.752+02:002012-09-28T14:10:43.752+02:00Will Wright, the creator of Sim City, always insis...Will Wright, the creator of <i>Sim City</i>, always insisted that it was a "software toy" and not a game, since it had no ultimate objective and, therefore, players had to invent their own goals and criteria of success/failure.<br /><br />Perhaps the same viewpoint could be applied to MMOs.Ephemeronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16403198085556121203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-83769155070433249922012-09-28T09:38:51.450+02:002012-09-28T09:38:51.450+02:00Eve is an universe where thousands of games are pl...Eve is an universe where thousands of games are played all the time. Some are big, like sov, other are small like a 1v1 or station trade.<br /><br />Who knows from where this need that you have to box things in empty concepts come from? Eve is a mimic universe with a small set of rules and the same level of human interaction of real life. From the begging of your blog you've been expanding in this silly definitions that have no explanatory power, or reality changing consequences. <br /><br />On a positive note, that makes the commentary part of your blog nothing short of awesome. Guys like Hivemind that post regularly are just great. If you could collect his comments you could make a very good blog.<br /><br />I was just a bit sad with your last post and the right wing, withe supremassists nuts that comment on it. You left a guy that comment that given rights to women, blacks, etc was the cause for today's economic problems. <br /><br />Well, apart from that, your blog is entertaining. Hope you have luck in 00 and can find a way to make a lasting effect in our little universe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-73913163675203980192012-09-28T09:12:23.879+02:002012-09-28T09:12:23.879+02:00@Azuriel: there is huge difference between having ...@Azuriel: there is huge difference between having a 0.00000000001% chance to win by doing random moves (like in Poker) and having 100% chance.<br /><br />We can agree that watching a movie is not a game.<br />You can pause, slow and fast forward a movie but it still not become a game, right?<br />Now imagine that you watch a video of someone else leveling up in WoW. That's a movie, not a game, right?<br />Since you simply can't fail in leveling in WoW, you playing the game would make the very same images visible on the screen as in the previous movie. <br /><br />Compare it with HL-CS. My actions make serious differences in the outcome. If I suck, my "movie" will be very different from the movie I watched about HL-CS, as I end up dead and "opposing side won" message at the end. My actions affected the outcome. The actions of the WoW player has no effect on his "movie", he can only make it slower, faster or completely stop and interrupt.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-29483526694157942332012-09-28T08:54:05.128+02:002012-09-28T08:54:05.128+02:00You could have shortened the post by saying "...You could have shortened the post by saying "I arbitrarily define games as X," because that is once again what you did. I mean, you are quoting things like this:<br /><br /><i>Creative expression is art if made for its own beauty, and entertainment if made for money. [and not games]</i><br /><br />So... the Sistine Chapel isn't art? Statue of David? Mona Lisa? Pretty sure all those were made for money, artists had patrons, were on retainer, etc. Nevermind how these <i>art pieces</i> are simultaneously non-art because they have a cash value and can be sold. Or that we have to divine the motivations of long-dead people before something can be considered art. <br /><br />And then there is nonsense:<br /><br /><i>World of Warcraft leveling fails on the "interactive" part, as the spells on your castbar are equally good. You can "win" it by literally pressing them randomly, they merely function as "press any key to continue" in a movie.</i><br /><br />Even if I accept it on face value that pressing random buttons results in victory in WoW leveling - good luck even walking out of Goldshire assuming directional buttons are among those pressed randomly - I have to ask how absurd does the argument get when it comes to failure? Is <i>any</i> game "more of a game" when you can make random decisions and hypothetically win? Do you recognize no difference between potentially random moves winning and optimal moves winning faster? After all, since you can start over in most games infinitely, all games are potentially winnable with X iterations of random moves.Azurielhttp://inanage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-4494394318629541782012-09-28T08:41:53.066+02:002012-09-28T08:41:53.066+02:00But more seriously, you're both wrong and dece...But more seriously, you're both wrong and deceptive again: you quote Roger Callois' definition of a game, but then form your post around a negation of Chris Crawford's definition, conveniently omitting that there are differing opinions. If there's something to be learned from the Wikipedia article, it's that there is no hard and fast rule what is or is not a game.<br /><br />And you're also simplifying reality: take for example Chess. For most chess players, chess is a game: it has goals, it has an opponent, it is non-productive, and non-creative. Yet at the same time, there are people for whom playing Chess is their main source of income (ie., playing chess is productive). So where does this leave Chess now - is it a game, or not?<br /><br />Same with WoW: just because you no longer consider WoW or other MMOs a game, it doesn't mean that they aren't for other people.Druur Monakhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07299435488090977357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-48490916878967277202012-09-28T08:13:49.026+02:002012-09-28T08:13:49.026+02:00WoW's peak subscriber figure was after the rel...WoW's peak subscriber figure was after the release of WOTLK, where it flattened out, before starting it's steady decline post Cata (see http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png). But of the only serious changes to what you consider the "game" parts of WoW, rated pvp, didn't change to coincide with the slide. In fact the introduction of Rated BGs coincides with the slide, so that is definitely not an indicator that having more of a "game" is what will cure WoW's ailments. Almost all of the changes that have contributed to the slide are the changes to PvE, and I'm sure each person will have a different opinion as to which particular change has caused the slide the most. <br /><br />My personal opinion is that WoW's plummeting subscriber numbers are due to them ironically making the game too accessible. This means that instead of all but the most hardcore always having more of the game to "explore and progress", they can "finish" the game with relative ease and instead find themselves with nothing to do except do content they have already done in a slightly harder format. Nothing makes someone quit a game faster than having nothing to do.<br /><br />I think you are sort of saying this in your last paragraph, but this doesn't seem to correlate with your build up about "game" definitions. The PvE side of WoW is the thing that has changed for the worse, not the fact that it is lacking in what you define as a "game".Mickonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-69710142541747771342012-09-28T08:07:49.266+02:002012-09-28T08:07:49.266+02:00I am surprised to read this from your fingers.
Wh...I am surprised to read this from your fingers.<br /><br />What's next - that you praise the 0-dps raid "leeches" in WoW for understanding that WoW is not a game, and having taking process optimization to the meta-game level?Druur Monakhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07299435488090977357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-80038248126064189072012-09-28T07:42:17.022+02:002012-09-28T07:42:17.022+02:00so if games are "having opponent whom you mus...so if games are "having opponent whom you must defeat directly" does that mean every single player computer "game" ever made suddenly not become a game? What about solitaire? What about if I have a round of golf on my own?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com