tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post3444787364287705522..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: You can't metagame in highsec (and the creation of RvB)Gevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-61673792625966461742014-02-27T21:55:40.482+01:002014-02-27T21:55:40.482+01:00Where is your proof that Blohm and Voss are a goon...Where is your proof that Blohm and Voss are a goon alt corp? You've claimed this, and yet what do you have backing this assertion?<br /><br />WarrenE Buffet, member of Bolhm with a history of being in Red Federation Holding Corp, the alliance holding corp for Red Fed.<br /><br />Marla Tource, former member of the red Fed holding corp.<br /><br />Saxonaire Trollstriker, former member of Red Fed.<br /><br />This is all available by clicking links in evewho, not much research effort at all. You know, maybe that war wasn't protecting goon assets. Maybe, just maybe that was a war protecting RvB alt assets. Given the past history of those members, that seems much more likely than protecting a random goon alt corp.<br /><br />As for burn Jita, again what gets RvB the most high sec targets for the least cost in that scenario? Allying with goons meant all those war deccing goons were legit targets for zero cost. Goons could also be shot when going suspect for zero cost. Why would goons accept the ally request, because the choices were let rvb help and maybe kill the deccers or not accept the ally request and face one more group shooting when they went suspect or even face a wardec from RvB too.<br /><br />It seems like in both of those cases, you are assuming RvB's subservience to goons. Yet in one case the logic seems to be protecting their own alts and in the other case, allying with goons gave RvB the most targets for zero cost. Heck, for all we know, RvB could have told goons to accept the ally or they would flood Jita with their own members, messing up the burn Jita plan.<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-29575741563700686692014-02-27T21:31:11.701+01:002014-02-27T21:31:11.701+01:00Gevlon:
"@Arrendis: RvB has absolutely no sel...Gevlon:<br />"@Arrendis: RvB has absolutely no self-interest in protecting Goon POCOs. They could easily take all POCOs themselves. Or they could enter a non-aggression pact. Or simply just ignore POCOs since they lived without them for long. There cannot be other reason than subservience."<br /><br />You've been attacking Goon POCOs. Have you attacked RvB POCOs? Have you reinforced them, and beaten RvB when they came to defend the timer?<br /><br />Because until you do that, and show that when that happens, they call for help and Goons <i>don't</i> respond, you haven't demonstrated that they gain nothing.Arrendisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-79698999578686747762014-02-27T21:22:32.658+01:002014-02-27T21:22:32.658+01:00That's a more reasonable statement. It still h...That's a more reasonable statement. It still has the flaw that you don't know how much of the war RVB was allied for, and the contextual problem that it's burn jita and so there was probably a ton of concord whoring. It is, nonetheless, a more reasonable statement<br /><br />The main problem with your conclusions remain however. The data is explained fully by the two publicly stated facts that RVB joined goons for burn jita (as did many other entities, including TEST in between Goon attacks on Delve and their invasion of fountain) and that RVB and Goons made have a mutual defense pact over highsec POCOs. This doesn't mean you're conclusions are wrong, but you have no evidence that they're correct either. <br /><br />To actually show that RVB are currently pets (since, despite numerous blogs claiming RVB was made by goons you keep deflecting and saying that doesn't matter) you need to show something that isn't explained by the (IMO much more reasonable) hypothesis that their relationship is just what they say it is.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09714761772780283634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-18313051930031141412014-02-27T20:51:00.190+01:002014-02-27T20:51:00.190+01:00@Michael: then let's look at it backward: in t...@Michael: then let's look at it backward: in the wars where Goons lost 2/3 of their ships (among highsec wars), RvB was allied with them. Maybe they were useless allies, but allies still.<br /><br />And as soon as I have the RvB kill data, I share it with you.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-47327575442499239992014-02-27T20:31:33.323+01:002014-02-27T20:31:33.323+01:00You keep saying 2/3 of RVB losses. You don't ...You keep saying 2/3 of RVB losses. You don't have any evidence for this number, all you know is that the Marmite GSF was during Burn Jita had 120b in kills. You don't know how much of that was GSF and how much was RVB. Looking at the war history in game suggests it's incredibly weighted on the GSF side (not a single RVB loss is listed). Moreover, as it was during a suicide ganking campaign, it's likely that a large portion of those losses were concord whoring<br /><br />You also don't know how much of the war RVB actually participated in, other than it being at least two weeks. <br /><br />Basically the statistic is even more useless than the raw RVB killboard that shows 24 Titan killsAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09714761772780283634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-11605046383941331802014-02-27T19:54:29.425+01:002014-02-27T19:54:29.425+01:00@Babar: and allying Goons in Burn Jita 8 months ea...@Babar: and allying Goons in Burn Jita 8 months earlier? Protecing Blohm and Voss Shipyards? <br /><br />These happened long before the POCOs. <br /><br />Again: 2/3 of the external war losses of RvB were suffered in wars where they were (the in-game highsec war sense) allied with Goons.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-67970044946530873182014-02-27T19:50:51.001+01:002014-02-27T19:50:51.001+01:00Imagine this scenario: CCP announces high-sec poco...Imagine this scenario: CCP announces high-sec pocos. Nobody knows how it will play out. Nobody knows if all the big null-sec coalitions will make a stab at them, nobody knows if high-sec alliances will, nobody knows anything. Everything is unclear, and so those who are interested start making strategies.<br /><br />It's very possible that Goons and RvB imagined there would be a lot more fighting over high-sec poco's than what came to be. If that was the case, it was not an unfounded assumption, nobody knew what was going to happen after all. So they enter a treaty: They'll divide the areas around Jita, and protect each other. Goons know that RvB have constant presence and high-sec and are thus valuable allies, and RvB know that Goons can gather huge forces in high-sec if properly motivated to do so (Burn Jita, the interdictions etc). They also know that Goons have a huge war chest, but most importantly, they know that Goons never back out of a treaty they've "signed".<br /><br />So it made perfect sense for both parties to enter a mutual defence pact. We know now that there hasn't been much conflict over high-sec pocos, and you're probably right that currently Goons are benefiting more from the treaty than RvB, but RvB still choose to stand by their word.Babarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-62112911959020815512014-02-27T19:45:17.737+01:002014-02-27T19:45:17.737+01:00Or, you know, not wanting to eternally fight over ...Or, you know, not wanting to eternally fight over the POCOs while at the same time ensuring they are the only ones that own the good ones. Sure, half that goal could be accomplished by a non-aggression pact, but by maintaining a level of mutual defense as well, it discourages anyone from taking them from each group separately (note here that you attacking POCOs doesn't mean much unless you actually deprive either group of them)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-42199480697506865822014-02-27T19:40:47.633+01:002014-02-27T19:40:47.633+01:00@Peter: and Blohm and Voss shipyard war and 2/3 of...@Peter: and Blohm and Voss shipyard war and 2/3 of Goon wars in highsec.<br /><br />@Arrendis: RvB has absolutely no self-interest in protecting Goon POCOs. They could easily take all POCOs themselves. Or they could enter a non-aggression pact. Or simply just ignore POCOs since they lived without them for long. There cannot be other reason than subservience.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-30893940442228081012014-02-27T19:08:01.683+01:002014-02-27T19:08:01.683+01:00RvB participated in Burn Jita and have a POCO trea...RvB participated in Burn Jita and have a POCO treaty with goons. That it. That's the entirety of your 'circumstantial evidence'.<br /><br />Both of these things are public knowledge, and neither point to them been created/controlled by goons.<br /><br />So it's rather a shame you keep repeating your nonsense - 'RvB protect goon assets in highsec' is a legitimate criticism, wheras 'RvB were created by goons to...' is the ranting of a lunatic.Peternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-24970705188983828372014-02-27T19:03:17.307+01:002014-02-27T19:03:17.307+01:00Gevlon:
"What matters is right now RvB is a G...Gevlon:<br />"What matters is right now RvB is a Goon pet and anyone joins or stays in RvB is serving Goons, while he is still called a "pubbie shitlord" by Goons."<br /><br />So far, you've demonstrated something nobody denies: that RvB and CONDI have a mutual defense pact regarding their highsec POCOs.<br /><br />There's two elements you haven't demonstrated, though:<br /><br />First, you haven't demonstrated that RvB are <i>subservient</i> to CONDI - ie: that RvB are doing things because CONDI orders them to do it, as opposed to RvB living up to the obligations they've chosen to take on. This may seem like a distinction without difference, but I assure you, it's not.<br /><br />You keep tossing around that word 'pet', and clearly mean it in a disparaging way, but the relationships you're using it to describe in no way fit the 'do it or else' mold that you seem to want to make them fit. If they did, the CFC would be far smaller than it is. SMA would have been purged last year, and other alliances might have been on the chopping block far more recently.<br /><br />It is entirely possible that RvB entered into the mutual defense pact not because they were told to, but because they saw exactly this scenario as a possibility: People looking to hit Goon POCOs would be valid targets under the war ally system. If anything, that would mean <i>they're</i> using <i>Goons</i>, not the other way around.<br /><br />Can you demonstrate this is not the case?<br /><br />The other thing you've not demonstrated is that Goons, by and large, consider RvB "pubbie shitlords". Pubbies, yes, certainly - after all, they are. But 'shitlords' is something I've never heard thrown at RvB members, any more than it gets tossed at BNI members. They have their thing, they're doing it, and they're getting bloody in it.<br /><br />In both cases, you're attempting to disparage RvB line members and lay the blame at the feet of the Goons, in an effort to drive a wedge between the principles in the mutual defense pact. It's a pretty transparent attempt, by the way, but I just wanted to point out what, exactly, we would call that:<br /><br />You're metagaming in highsec.Arrendisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-25511333100532375242014-02-27T17:11:05.538+01:002014-02-27T17:11:05.538+01:00@Anonymous: I believe Goons created RvB and many c...@Anonymous: I believe Goons created RvB and many circumstantial evidence point there. But it's not really IMPORTANT if they really did it. If you prefer to believe that RvB was only infiltrated/corrupted before Burn Jita, that's good for me too. I won't bother convincing you.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-20974612268967835362014-02-27T17:01:23.716+01:002014-02-27T17:01:23.716+01:00I think you would have to demonstrate that... But ...I think you would have to demonstrate that... But I there is a core of RvB veterans. It doesn't mean that they are there to kill newbies. In fact, if you look at jagtor's killboard, some are definitely *not* interested in killing RvB newbies at all.<br /><br />LRAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-329529766466834812014-02-27T16:43:50.676+01:002014-02-27T16:43:50.676+01:00GG, you're an intelligent guy but you severely...GG, you're an intelligent guy but you severely lack in critical thinking. It hampers almost every article you put out and although it can be amusing it sometimes reach frightening levels. <br /><br />I'm going to do you a great service. Go buy and read Carl Sagan's 'The Demon-Haunted World'.<br /> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World<br /><br />Sagan puts forth a lot of clever ways to not come to faulty conclusions. Some of those tools you already master (law of large numbers come to mind) but some you ... don't. <br /><br />Almost all people should read that book, but for many it would be a waste of time. You have the intelligence to grasp it and use it.<br /><br />Take it for what it is. Not a flame, just a tip of how to be more correct. Smithhttp://imgur.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-21869526717731752142014-02-27T16:40:09.724+01:002014-02-27T16:40:09.724+01:00" Who created RvB is irrelevant. Who are the ..." Who created RvB is irrelevant. Who are the Goon alts in the RvB directorate is irrelevant. What is their ultimate plan is irrelevant.<br /><br />What matters is right now RvB is a Goon pet and anyone joins or stays in RvB is serving Goons, while he is still called a "pubbie shitlord" by Goons."<br /><br />O.o<br /><br />What? You've been arguing repeatedly that RvB is a goon creation. That is central to your premise and included in the title of this blog. How can you now say it doesn't matter? How is that not countering your whole argument? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-87899930460398579702014-02-27T16:27:21.184+01:002014-02-27T16:27:21.184+01:00@LR: my point is that there aren't many "...@LR: my point is that there aren't many "average" RvB members. There are two distinct groups: the PvP-ers, and the food.<br /><br />@Provi miner: There aren't 40K Goons. That's CFC. They already have FCs and management. There aren't even 12K Goons, that's GSF. Those corps were in various alliances.<br /><br />We are only talk about Goonwaffe members. 4K. Some will find home in various small ganking-griefing groups, the others won't be missed. <br /><br />Remember that there are already SA members outside of GSF, like in Clockwork Pinapple.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-8516054858537093732014-02-27T16:10:28.575+01:002014-02-27T16:10:28.575+01:00So the idea is to eliminate goons, thats the state...So the idea is to eliminate goons, thats the stated goal right?<br /><br />Well you can't, there are three slight problems. 1: the general goon mentality will continueally bring them back together. 2: They are not internal to eve at all, eve is just one part of their community (all of eve could hell camp them till the game breaks down and they wouldn't care). No eve? no prob Wot time.<br /><br />The third reason is that no one will accept a large influx of goons and goons can't lead in general (out of what 40K you will find some leaders) that means even if CFC stopped existing tomorrow you would have 40K players that no one in eve would touch which means that 40K automatically have there own community. Gotta find a way to rehabilitate them.Provi Minernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-59751302761119638262014-02-27T15:56:17.744+01:002014-02-27T15:56:17.744+01:00Jagtor is hardly an average RvB member... Even amo...Jagtor is hardly an average RvB member... Even among the veterans he is a bit of a legend.<br /><br />LRAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-44579232518146421782014-02-27T15:51:27.050+01:002014-02-27T15:51:27.050+01:00Correlation doesn't equal causation. One famou...Correlation doesn't equal causation. One famous example is that there was a correlation between the numbers of white stork and the number of newborn children. <br /><br />If we follow the Gevlon Goblin brand of logic, storks are bringing babies to happy couples.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-68733107149586515862014-02-27T12:34:03.176+01:002014-02-27T12:34:03.176+01:00So you're from an alternative when shooting th...So you're from an alternative when shooting the same direction doesn't assume allied status? <br /><br />Since none of us have seen the chatlogs where TNT and GSF allied, we can just assume that they happen to have frequent interests, right?<br /><br />But your trolling won't work. Who created RvB is irrelevant. Who are the Goon alts in the RvB directorate is irrelevant. What is their ultimate plan is irrelevant.<br /><br />What matters is right now RvB is a Goon pet and anyone joins or stays in RvB is serving Goons, while he is still called a "pubbie shitlord" by Goons.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-30332269547687976902014-02-27T12:11:36.515+01:002014-02-27T12:11:36.515+01:00The point of statistical analysis is that RvB'...<i>The point of statistical analysis is that RvB's stated mission is indeed to just fight "whatever". So if their kills are focused on some targets, that's an evidence.<br /><br />People who believe in chatlogs or forum posts will not believe me anyway, as these can be forged. Intelligent people on the other hand believe in numerical evidence. That's all I need. RvB can't function without its management and most of them are just honest, useful idiots. If I convince them that they are scammed, they will quit and RvB crumbles.</i><br /><br />Er no. Your statistical analysis, assuming for a second that we accept your method of analysis only shows that perhaps RvB are biased towards goon interests. It does not show that Goons created RvB. No amount of numerical evidence could show that.<br /><br />You are assuming that because interests of RvB and Goons may align periodically (or even frequently) that it somehow equals "Goons created RvB". That is a tin foil hat conspiracy theory..because you have zero actual objective evidence to back up the claim.<br /><br />Your standards of evidence are pretty appalling. And the premise you derive from that evidence does not stand up to scrutiny.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-86478958176046388862014-02-27T09:51:45.459+01:002014-02-27T09:51:45.459+01:00Two things with your article I need to point out i...Two things with your article I need to point out in fairness;<br /><br /><br />"Mangala, leader of RvB" <br />Mangala is not the leader of RvB.. He's one of the 8 (I think) directors. The two real leaders are shown on both the corp info list (CEO)<br /><br /><br /><br />"These players are Morlocks, constantly fed with kills of the other corp, so they are happy between CTAs."<br /><br />RvB has never ever had a CTA. Any event they have is entirely optional.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-9726399938785454362014-02-27T09:38:15.959+01:002014-02-27T09:38:15.959+01:00"Goons are literally the best highsec wartarg..."Goons are literally the best highsec wartargets in EVE:<br /><br /> They come to highsec in large numbers. Other nullsec players don't, so you can't kill them in highsec."<br /><br />thats just propaganda. look at marmite wars. If other nullsec players would not come to highsec, why they are wardeccing others and have success with it?<br />All alliances have their dumbass members to go to tradehubs during war.<br />ofcourse the amount in CFC is higher, because they have a lots of members.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-43028526900840647772014-02-27T09:10:24.180+01:002014-02-27T09:10:24.180+01:00Gevlon:
"@Dado R: except Goons can't win...Gevlon:<br /><br />"@Dado R: except Goons can't win in highsec. If they blob, they get blueballed. If they don't blob, they die. This is why they created RvB at the first place, to have someone fight off wardeccers."<br /><br />You're not taking into account objectives here. If the reason the Goons form up is to save a POCO, then if they're blueballed, op success.<br /><br />When the CFC blobs, we give no fucks about 'good fights'. We have a job to do, and that's all that matters. Work can be fun, but fun is not a requirement when it comes to doing the Work.Arrendisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-8195087933982025902014-02-27T09:03:46.348+01:002014-02-27T09:03:46.348+01:00@Dado R: except Goons can't win in highsec. If...@Dado R: except Goons can't win in highsec. If they blob, they get blueballed. If they don't blob, they die. This is why they created RvB at the first place, to have someone fight off wardeccers.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.com