tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post3369117602079025845..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: Who won the battle?Gevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-42460635558549224292012-06-29T02:54:51.383+02:002012-06-29T02:54:51.383+02:00Not to nit pick, but I'd say the objective is ...Not to nit pick, but I'd say the objective is to make your enemies lose the will to fight. Not logging in is one way. If your opponent can be convinced that they never wanted sov anyway and will be happier as roaming pirates, or that alliance leadership sucks and they should jump ship to another one, that works, too.<br /><br />That said, when it comes to Sov, I do agree that one man can make a much greater difference with propaganda or infiltration than with any ship.Agent Black Cathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09047514540388217694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-73610528546435578112012-06-28T10:43:10.057+02:002012-06-28T10:43:10.057+02:00"But we won the strategic objective" is ..."But we won the strategic objective" is one of the standard excuses of alliances that are losing the war, right next to "we won the isk war", "all losses have already been replaced" and "didn't want that system/region anyways".<br /><br />In EVE there is one strategic objective that matters - to make your enemies stop logging in.<br /><br />Usually that objective is achieved long before one of the combatants runs out of funds (although insufficient funds for reimbursements can cause supercap pilots to stop logging in) and before the majority of territorial objectives are taken (e.g. IT was dead by the time 6VDT was under siege, cleaning up Delve (IT's home region) took a long time but there was no hurry as it didn't matter anyways).<br /><br />The aggressor will try to achieve this main objective by any means necessary and it is important to understand that actual combat is not necessarily the most efficient one.<br /><br />One spy that has infiltrated your alliance for two years to gain director roles, drops sov in your home system and then runs off with your alliance's reimbursement wallet will destabilize you in a way that a defeat in the field usually won't achieve.<br /><br />One RoyOfCA (http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/69125) who has a talent for pulling just the right triggers in his propaganda efforts can do more damage than a whole fleet.<br /><br />However, when it comes to pvp what usually matters is who truly *feels* like the winner. This is a function of the various objectives (achieve the OP's main objective, hold the field, win the ISK war) but if you feel the need to remind your members and the world at large that you won one or more of these chances are you lost the fight.<br /><br />So, yes, important information is missing but the missing information is "which side ended up smugposting all over CAOD?" and "which side felt the need to remind everyone than by objective criterias they should be considered the actual winners?".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-88949334980061383232012-06-28T06:05:48.128+02:002012-06-28T06:05:48.128+02:00@mrmeh - most nullsec'ers will certainly agree...@mrmeh - most nullsec'ers will certainly agree that gevlon is in for a shock if he expects to just go into null with a basilisk and nothing else, not even experience. but multiple comments from multiple experienced people haven't persuaded him otherwise (I've multiple times mentioned that he should at least get in and learn how to scout in a covert ops) <br /><br />Someone with this attitude will either learn very quickly and possibly spectacularly what's wrong with this approach, or they will rage quit and call the mandatory fleet doctrines or comms rules "stupid"<br /><br />However, I think we'll all agree that he's unlikely to fall into the second group of people so I'm just waiting for the humble pie to hit him in the face in 35 days or so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-55389004388692519892012-06-28T00:45:52.370+02:002012-06-28T00:45:52.370+02:00My first answer, although not included on your lis...My first answer, although not included on your list, was "tactical draw, probably strategical victory to one side but cannot tell for sure".<br /><br />I won't bother finding a quote, but Sun Tzu emphasizes how all military actions should play towards a political goal that caused the conflict in the first place. Looks like it applies here as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-17241825001795002962012-06-27T23:27:42.070+02:002012-06-27T23:27:42.070+02:00Gevlon ...
Eve is different to all of us, yes. Bu...Gevlon ...<br /><br />Eve is different to all of us, yes. But your take on "winning" is much like Charlie's. Yours is no where close to ours.<br /><br />The Killboards do mean a lot to us PVPers. We laugh and cry over what goes there. <br /><br />While your 2 losses are interesting. Your lack of... any kill means you have no idea how PVP works. You somehow keep assuming this 2004 rendition of EVE PVP pirating as the PVP of the game. It's simply not true. And while I get that wasn't the entire point of why you posted, it's lost on those that do heavily PVP, because you are dancing around an issue you don't understand.<br /><br />The only reason I comment is for a simple suggestion. You cannot simply train for Logi and then get into whatever fleet you want. Gaurdian pilots are a must for Armor fleets and inexperienced ones are not welcomed in most cases. <br /><br />You need to go get some basic PVP experience under your belt before you go balling in Logistics. And no, I don't mean go in a rfiter and greif hulks. I mean you need to go be in fleets and understand fleets. Then after some time maybe someone will show you how Logi channels and comms work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-299218209721190932012-06-27T23:16:04.820+02:002012-06-27T23:16:04.820+02:00@Logan - perhaps, but I personally find his defini...@Logan - perhaps, but I personally find his definition to be pretty spot on. The Goons, for example, win whenever anyone kills a Hulk because of their Technetium control. They win because they can elect the CSM chairman by themselves. They win regardless of wheter they are "Orange" or "Lemon" as long as the keep or take the system in question.<br /><br />Sov in the right systems gives you access to more resources per player in your alliance than just about anything. It gives you a negotiating platform stronger than any non-Sov holders. Cap ship combat came into existence in the first place because people will sink incredible amounts of ISK into keeping sov.<br /><br />The only place I disagree with Gevlon on this is that every member of a Sov alliance is "winning". Most successful alliances have a single leader and/or a small council to back up that leader. A renter corp may have effectively zero say in alliance policy and zero ability to hold a system on their own. A low grade pilot within that corp may have no say in the corp, making him an interchangable part in a big machine. That's not winning.Agent Black Cathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09047514540388217694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-20085795750362231762012-06-27T21:52:47.991+02:002012-06-27T21:52:47.991+02:00Considering is a fictional battle (no null allianc...Considering is a fictional battle (no null alliance that defends or attack a system will go with "various" rifters and crap).But let's assume this "notgoingtohappen" scenario, Orange wins.<br /><br />Important data missing? No important data is missing, Orange won, because, DUH :<br />-they did more ISK damage<br />-droped caps<br />-lemons had run away.<br /><br />If the SBU was Lemon's, the Orange cap fleet would have been destroyed.If the SBU was Oranges...lemons running away means that orange deployed more SBU.<br /><br />Anyway...just go already in null, stay there, live there, FIGHT there for like 3-4 months than start making fictional scenarios.Semakkanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-70770125915144697552012-06-27T16:18:04.004+02:002012-06-27T16:18:04.004+02:00Gevlon,
I would very much like to have a conversa...Gevlon,<br /><br />I would very much like to have a conversation with you regarding your take on Eve pvp. On that probably won't just fit as a comment on your blog. If you are interested shoot me an eve mail. <br /><br />I find it interesting and telling that you haven't pvped in Eve yet you state so many things as facts. Just because your definition of "winning" is one thing, that being obviously "total dominance of 0.0" does not make that everyone's goal. Good luck out in 0.0 when you get there.Logan Fyreitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18020193253139376508noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-23693500545211637282012-06-27T16:15:49.893+02:002012-06-27T16:15:49.893+02:00@Belloche: but some can ENFORCE their view to othe...@Belloche: but some can ENFORCE their view to others. For example the Hulkageddoners could enoforce their "fun concept" to the miners, destroying their fun.<br /><br />Similarly, large blobs can take away the fun of roamers. <br /><br />The ones who can enforce their fun on all, won. The rest lost. Above all, they lost their fun.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-54760673092541793172012-06-27T15:44:32.392+02:002012-06-27T15:44:32.392+02:00Gevlon,
depending on how it is framed in the above...Gevlon,<br />depending on how it is framed in the above situation, both sides could have won or lost. <br /><br />Eve online is a game, we all agree on this, right? Don't we all play games with the intent of having fun? In my opinion, a sandbox game means that everyone has set their own objectives for fun. No one way for having fun should be considered "better" or "wrong."Bellochehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00122541080780218946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-54257447448959610662012-06-27T15:01:55.171+02:002012-06-27T15:01:55.171+02:00@Evemonkey: give me 36 days, 13h, 27m and I'll...@Evemonkey: give me 36 days, 13h, 27m and I'll be in null/WH with my Guardian logi.<br /><br />The blessing of remaps is very fast learning. The curse is that before it completes, I'm completely useless. I mean my almost 5M SP nullsec combat (logi) pilot has 11K skillpoints in spaceship combat (the ones you get for free). So I must wait a bit. And you too to hear of my (mis)fortunes in null/WH.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-65177063114080335712012-06-27T13:19:50.283+02:002012-06-27T13:19:50.283+02:00nice post - I almost didn't read past the firs...nice post - I almost didn't read past the first paragraph though - your ignorance shows through every time you talk about nullsec specifics.<br /><br />I like how you include the industrials/minors in the "winning eve" group - since joining my current alliance I've gained a huge respect for our mining fleet - I could say that they're the first "hardcore/elite" miners I've ever met. they do their thing well and for the greater benefit of the alliance to assist with the war effort.<br /><br />On another note: if you want to be part of what I predict will be one of the largest confrontations since the bob wars - come join the fray in Delve - within the next couple of weeks the entire left hand side of the sov map is going to explode. <br /><br />I'll certainly be blogging about it and although I love a good fight, I far prefer to be fighting for a reason and now we have one: Take delve from the southern alliances. and there are certainly some very serious people being very serious about this goal.<br /><br />I mean this in the nicest possible way: stop talking and start doing! even if you have to join up with scout alt just to be part of the bigger game.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-91849858737100895032012-06-27T09:40:23.257+02:002012-06-27T09:40:23.257+02:00I think Gevlon means that Chribba may have influen...I think Gevlon means that Chribba may have <i>influence</i>, but he has no <i>power</i>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-57540585503567113202012-06-27T08:54:19.483+02:002012-06-27T08:54:19.483+02:00Chribba did have Sov under his name and from what ...Chribba did have Sov under his name and from what I can tell he had his station open, like a safe harbor. And people respected that. So when the system got SBU'd, all sorts of people rushed to his aid.<br /><br />https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=13643<br /><br />Now, if THAT isn't winning, what is? Even under your classification, he got a piece of EVE and made something unique, essentially shaping the game world (even if it;s just a little bit).Tithianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17567723372347346654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-53816223086757958032012-06-27T08:31:13.236+02:002012-06-27T08:31:13.236+02:00@NoizyGamer: no, he isn't winning anything. He...@NoizyGamer: no, he isn't winning anything. He is no doubt a celebrity and creator of various tools but has no power over the future of EVE (nor he aspires to have any).Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-34710431252043848582012-06-27T08:13:37.477+02:002012-06-27T08:13:37.477+02:00Just curious. Where does Chribba fit in your matr...Just curious. Where does Chribba fit in your matrix? Because I would definitely consider him to be winning.NoizyGamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17315716516032999133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-17955361926764014642012-06-27T07:49:21.491+02:002012-06-27T07:49:21.491+02:00Well, if you want to analyze battles in depth, you...Well, if you want to analyze battles in depth, you should also ask this: "What was the value of the pilot time spent by both sides?".<br /><br />A battle of your description probably caused the involved pilots to spend ~1-2 hours participating (shipping up, forming up, fighting, reshipping, etc). The non-newbies among them could have earned 100-200 mil each running high sec incursions, or about 10-20 bil a side (~100 non-newbies per team). Was the objective worth spending 10-20 bil attacking/defending? (what kind of revenue stream was at stake?) Were the odds of doing massive ISK damage to the enemy good enough to spend 10-20 bil pursuing them? <br /><br />If you really want to win the game, you should probably consider such questions.(Maybe hiring some mercs or bribing the enemy FC would have been cheaper than a direct engagement).Monkeytroublesnoreply@blogger.com