tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post3044271677481294568..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: Gutenberg vs ArthasdklolGevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-15210463651406396792011-09-01T10:37:56.917+02:002011-09-01T10:37:56.917+02:00Do you need a separate project for this? There are...Do you need a separate project for this? There are quite a lot of guilds who raid without voice, take a look at http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/ravencrest/Borked for example. They did quite a lot of content in previous tier.Leehohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07438956683794597730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-82461270160263294812011-09-01T03:31:34.759+02:002011-09-01T03:31:34.759+02:00Actually, I think it's more accurate to say th...Actually, I think it's more accurate to say that in most raids there are 8 different things going on at once, and everyone only focuses on the 2-3 things that are most relevant to their role in the group, and 99% of the time stuff occurring in your specific "zone" is not relevant to everyone else. VC comes in when something occurs in your individual zone of attention that actually needs to be communicated to the broader group.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-74130743570100720752011-09-01T02:49:55.834+02:002011-09-01T02:49:55.834+02:00Also, what you don't seem to realize is that a...Also, what you don't seem to realize is that anything that could be done with voice communication is done by text chat as well. Both written into the 'chat' box or said out loud are the same. You can convey local information, chit-chat, or even spoon feed with chat (hint: /rw).<br /><br /><br />The key difference is not WHAT they communicate, but HOW QUICKLY. Now sure 'local informatoin' plans can be made in advance, but even the best plans will fail more often than not if they cannot adapt.<br /><br />If a plan is completely rigid, then even one mistake will cause the whole thing to collapse. Since WoW is real time, the faster you can react and fix an issue, the more likely you are to turn what would've been a wipe into a victory.csdxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-41048565699637717882011-09-01T02:39:05.100+02:002011-09-01T02:39:05.100+02:00No you have it entirely wrong, having someone call...No you have it entirely wrong, having someone call out taunts or incomings isn't "boosting", it is specialization of work. <br /><br />This specialization is why we have technology and free time and just about everything else. Hopefully as someone at least passingly familiar with economics this much is obvious to you. It's the reason we're not all farmers spinning our own wool and churning butter.<br /><br />So voice chat lets people take specialized roles in the raid. Rather than everyone having to watch a timer, only one person does and everyone else can better focus on their job. This is important because people only have so much ability to pay attention to many things at once. Thus by having only one person pay attention to something, everyone else has less pressure, meaning better performance and less mistakes. This game is built on the basic 3 role specialization (tank/heal/dps) and some bosses add more like gong banger, or kiter.<br /><br />At the end of the day you'll get a team of specialists, or if you take a pessimistic view of it even, you'll still likely end up with a structure much like the army, with officers and the grunts they command.csdxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-79119553329532963412011-08-31T23:12:24.829+02:002011-08-31T23:12:24.829+02:00Sten Düring, that's what macros and raid warni...Sten Düring, that's what macros and raid warnings were made for.<br /><br />Not saying that you're not using vent the right way with your example, but you could certainly achieve the same with written chat.ardoRichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11034320697611212733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-35513883949983054542011-08-31T22:14:46.864+02:002011-08-31T22:14:46.864+02:00Gevlon, your concept of raiding reminds me of robo...Gevlon, your concept of raiding reminds me of robot competitions where you set up your script against the AI script and then let both run as programmed. If you have a good script and everybody executes it well, you get a repeatable kill. If not, you wipe and adjust your inputs.<br /><br />The alternative you clearly want to avoid is a remote-controlled robot that isn't pre-programmed but responds to commands as they are issued. In this analogy, the raid leader uses voice chat to control the various raid members (e.g. "taunt now"). Your project offers people who are tired of remote-control fights the chance to experience another type of raiding where kills are programmatic because they are designed for success and built with quality materials.<br /><br />However, there is another way for a robot to beat the competition: an AI with adaptive learning that can alter it's approach as it goes. This is more like the HC raiding I've done than either pre-programmed scripts or remote-control inputs. And it's particularly suited to an environment like The PuG where group composition is variable from raid to raid. It requires fast iteration of strategy and effective communication between various systems. High-performance components are necessary so that sub-optimal results can be attributed to decision-quality rather than simple malfunction. In such a system, voice chat can act as a lubricant: when applied in the right place at the right time in the right amount, it enhances performance; otherwise, it can be disasterous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-75961348721164927812011-08-31T21:24:58.181+02:002011-08-31T21:24:58.181+02:00Baleroc. I'm the decimate tank. If I take two ...Baleroc. I'm the decimate tank. If I take two straight hits and AD triggers, I either call for a taunt or get my RL breathing down my back so hard I'll need half an hour to stand up again.<br /><br />Does this mean I'm spoonfeeding either my RL or my retard co-tank?<br /><br />Hell no!<br /><br />The third hit, if it lands, could wipe the raid. My co-tank is guaranteed above 90%.<br /><br />Who wants to know?<br /><br />Well, co-tank obviously, but also my healers. My taunt-command signals that they should stay the hell away from me with their heals and swap to the taunting tank.<br /><br />We're also likely to have a reverted handover if my co-tank did indeed take those 90%. This is to make sure he's refilled for his usual duty. This might or might not happen. Depends on where my WoG is in the cycle, if I received a left-over heal when calling out the first taunt, if the co-tank was healed up fast enough for us to skip the ping-pong.<br /><br />Now, convice me that we should juggle this data over written chat, because I'll personally suggest to the RL that the healer who's reading chat instead of watching target health gets raidkicked.Sten Düringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06676541059143438525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-87987541578041568772011-08-31T18:22:53.478+02:002011-08-31T18:22:53.478+02:00"we will not go 25 men."
The choice of ..."we will <i>not</i> go 25 men."<br /><br />The choice of words makes this sounds like a guild policy, rather than a Gevlon policy. How does this not conflict with the "You can start <i>any</i> raid in the raid times" rule?<br /><br />You say that multiple 10-man raids are better because they create competition, but then you say you only organize raids because "no one else does." How can there be multiple raids if no one else organizes any?IrOn TuRtLenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-16216480616499401442011-08-31T18:14:42.663+02:002011-08-31T18:14:42.663+02:00Where I think Gevlon is wrong about Voice Chat is ...Where I think Gevlon is wrong about Voice Chat is in that he always assumes that it is spoon feeding to a lesser player from a better one. It is entirely possible and actually likely that in an environment where all players have skill and are taught to read up on encounters that there would be a balance on the use of voice chat. So the player calling out one person's mistake in one raid could be the person being saved by someone else in a future raid. Voice chat isn't a crutch that prevents players from researching raids, it is a method for making small game time corrections, in order to prevent wipes because of a small slip ups. These mistakes can happen with all players from veterans, including Gevlon, to new players experiencing raiding for the first time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-34762796618841432602011-08-31T16:56:53.561+02:002011-08-31T16:56:53.561+02:00The unit of the sold quantity is time.The unit of the sold quantity is time.Imaginehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07772465443235810323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-67390484844750717962011-08-31T15:56:02.231+02:002011-08-31T15:56:02.231+02:00Gev, you say "@Squishalot: DBM is an addon, a...Gev, you say "@Squishalot: DBM is an addon, a tool. Voice chat itself is useless, it needs a person who spoon-feeds you on it."<br /><br /><br />Who do you think input all the warning into DBM... a person. So yes DBM is exactly like voice chat, just automated, but the information you are seeing on your screen did come from a person.Struttnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-26022270257376167522011-08-31T13:51:52.197+02:002011-08-31T13:51:52.197+02:00You really don't need voice chat if you just r...You really don't need voice chat if you just raid easy and static normalmode content and never did something challenging. On normal, you just have to know the boss, don't stand in fire and eventually the boss will die and drop loot. If one repeatedly fails here, he has to be sort of simple minded. Alysrazor is the best example, because this fight is so static. Even the tornados spawn and move exactly the same way every time. This fight would be a good example to show that communication is obsolete and that skill matters.<br /><br />On the other hand, some hardmode fights need ad hoc communication because of situations that can differ from fight to fight. We are currently working on ragnaros hc in 10man, trying to hit p4 with just two meteors. <br />The fight has a lot decisions to be made on the fly and the person who makes them isn't a better player than the others, but he chooses from different possibilities that one which we will do NOW. For example, you have eight sons random spreaded across the room for six dps and ten seconds do decide, how to handle them - while still pushing die boss until he finally submerges. Then you have to choose one of the sons to stay alive until the end of the intermission, depending on how the intermissions works out. Thats just one example, there are many of this situations.<br /><br />We don't use voice chat to amuse us with silly jokes. We don't use it to have a raid leader tell others what they have to do - we haven't been using a dedicated raid leader for almost a year now. <br /><br />It is just moronic to call people, which cleared 6/7 normal on the first day of firelands (without visiting the PTR) to "have to be spoon-feeded" because they rely on using voice chat.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-13396541802530776392011-08-31T13:21:01.852+02:002011-08-31T13:21:01.852+02:00@Steel: your comments did not go unheard, please r...@Steel: your comments did not go unheard, please read tomorrows post.<br /><br />@Last anonymous: such thing needs perfect conspiration from 20+ people (as we rotate different ones), from different countries, not knowing each other. And why would anyone bother? They could just join a guild with official voice chat.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-86870283010788341232011-08-31T13:07:39.781+02:002011-08-31T13:07:39.781+02:00I guess I went on on too many details and kept spi...I guess I went on on too many details and kept spinning around the nail I wanted to hit. As I explained in my many posts, I understand and demonstrated that voice is indeed compensation for "lack of skill".<br /><br />What I have a problem with is words like "stupid", "unskilled" and "Arthasdklol" being tossed at Cata 25man HC levels. By someone who hasn't yet experienced it. Need to find some different concepts here. Of course, if you weren't saying that, I retract all of it and call peace. That's all.<br /><br />Otherwise I wish you all the success, and will be very impressed when you succeed. However I get a feeling you are tilting at wrong windmills here. "5K gs for uldaur" was a different affair. You must not forget the scope of it: you were proving that the uber nerfed content of WotlK (and mainly 10mans at that) required minimum gear gear, and setting a point of reference for skill. If we can do these bosses in i200, with people who never have seen these fights before, then you, in your welfare i264 should be doing this*x. You never wanted to prove that guilds should be doing 25man heroic LK and Yogg+0 25 in blues (there was still some mathematics scaling up though, as loose as they were). And the good players already knew the value of skill vs gear. Yet now it seems you want to go after everyone's vent, young and old, big and small as an absolute value, across the board (again, if you are not, I call it peace). Even Paragon is calling defiles and auramasteries and "kill it ffs" in vent... I'd let it go at this point.Steel H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02051764931456770746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-7362572570314529862011-08-31T12:30:39.382+02:002011-08-31T12:30:39.382+02:00I still do not understand how can you enforce no v...I still do not understand how can you enforce no voice chat rule. You may be happily believing that you're raiding without voice while other 9 raid members are telling each other "ok, let's not dissappoint the old goblin man, noone tells him ever!" in some Vent or RaidCall channel of which you are unaware.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-89633345337450072562011-08-31T11:38:30.422+02:002011-08-31T11:38:30.422+02:00@ Ephemeron, If written communication is so superi...@ Ephemeron, <i>If written communication is so superior, then why is the activity that you call "spoon-feeding" (and the rest of the world calls "teaching") so widespread even now, six centuries after Gutenberg's invention?</i><br /><br />Let me just point out that teaching is vastly different from the spoon-feeding Gevlon critiques on voice chat.<br /><br />The real life equivalent to the spoon-feeding that goes on voice chat would be having a teacher with you your whole life pointing out when you get your sums wrong (yes, really basic stuff) and how you should correct it.<br /><br />This should be unacceptable, and I have grown very silent on my guild's vent as of late because it's mostly the sort of thing that goes on there during fights.ardoRichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11034320697611212733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-65645782760651344522011-08-31T11:19:19.801+02:002011-08-31T11:19:19.801+02:00A guildie of mine used to have a really shitty PC,...A guildie of mine used to have a really shitty PC, so he didn't use a single addon in WoW. He was one of the best raiders in our guild even with that sort of "handicap". He didn't have the luxury of boss mods handholding most of us enjoy. He learned to follow the warnings that are already build in WoW and to read tactics beforehand.<br /><br />From my own experience I can tell that even if there are 8-10 different things happening during an encounter, half of them are not your business anyway. As a damage dealer you don't care how many stacks of a debuff tank has as you're not the one who is supposed to taunt to heal.<br /><br />What bothered me the most in 25 man raiding is that by the time I learned what was there to learn about the fight and was ready to kill the boss, some other people needed 10 more hours to sort their shit out and I felt like I was boosting a bunch of noobs, wasting my time (as well as gold-time).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-56212221861811625032011-08-31T11:14:50.957+02:002011-08-31T11:14:50.957+02:00Undergeared had an understandable aim and it contr...Undergeared had an understandable aim and it contributed to the desired result of encouraging more people to understand skill > gear.<br /><br />This project, however, seems a little less easy to "buy into". I simply do not understand why you have this strong conviction that Voice Chat = crutch for poor players.<br /><br />Will your next project be no-communication? Working on the basis that even /raid or /rw could be construed as a crutch?<br /><br />The argument that the use of Voice Chat runs counter to the a-sociality of the guild ethos is almost understandable though your reasoning that in order to support it you would need to record everything is a little strange.<br /><br />There's perhaps another angle to this as well; whilst you consistently mention a-sociality; one could argue you are creating a social environment; it's your social enviroment. The rules under which it operates are your rules; you have created a society. If you truly desire an a-social experience in this game would your aims not be better met by being an individual in your own guild?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-68786818165442697752011-08-31T10:22:24.755+02:002011-08-31T10:22:24.755+02:00You can always come up with some solution which re...You can always come up with some solution which replaces the voice chat. But it does not change the fact its the fastest communication tool.<br /><br />And if people are using voice chat for proper communication its a good sign they are active and interested in the success. Its strange but often people who did not communicate at all where often dead weight in the raid.<br /><br />And its true there is no simple guide to hardmodes. We had to study logs to decipher how other guilds are doing Rhyolit in order to correctly split dps between targets.Juminanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-19854803235139554762011-08-31T10:16:43.888+02:002011-08-31T10:16:43.888+02:00It will be interesting to see how this new project...It will be interesting to see how this new project develops. I can see only one issue where you will eventually run into trouble without a voice chat (or just waste enormous amounts of time). You mentioned yesterday that you would like to advance to the top and/or range of hc Guilds. That would be the Guys that, when a new content patch arrives, clear normal as fast as possible to then engage in the hc race for kills. (this is what I understood will be the aim rank wise; if I misinterpreted disregard the following arguments).<br />Information gathering will be a Problem. The Information and Boss Strategies will not be available by the time you encounter the Bosses. The only valid Sources of Information you’ll have available are the PTR, the List of Abilities of a Boss published pre Patch (mmo champion, etc) and some Beta Videos. If you are well prepared you will have a general Idea what a Boss will do in hc but what actually awaits you is somewhat in the dark. Now during Progress you will gather Information try by try and combine them to an avid strategy. This however requires a lot of Communication between the Raiders as each of them, defined by their Class/Role may see another angle/solution to a Problem in a new Bossfight. Without VC this Process will be much more time consuming, ultimately costing you ranking due to the time spent typing.<br />To summarize: At a high stage of Progress, there will be no Tankspot Guides, EJ only allows encounter Discussion once they themselves have defeated the Boss and the Bossmods usually take some weeks to actually work as you will be the Information gatherers that make Bossmods possible (by submitting your Logs to the Modders).<br />Anyway, best of luck with the new projectRiptornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-53418708863609362622011-08-31T10:15:48.653+02:002011-08-31T10:15:48.653+02:00@Squishalot: DBM is an addon, a tool. Voice chat i...@Squishalot: DBM is an addon, a tool. Voice chat itself is useless, it needs a person who spoon-feeds you on it.<br /><br />@Ephemeron: teaching survived Gutenberg because it's targets are officially considered "morons": the children. There is a reason why they can't vote.<br /><br />Also, theoretically information could be sold. However it's impossible to measure. What is the unit of the sold quantity?Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-60058254155779945632011-08-31T10:12:15.044+02:002011-08-31T10:12:15.044+02:00You're obviously not going to change your mind...You're obviously not going to change your mind so I'm going to sit back and watch with interest as your experiment unfolds. <br /><br />But I maintain, as do many others, that it's not the mode of communication that makes the difference, it's the communicators. <br /><br />Gutenberg created the method, he didn't create the knowledge.chewynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-87210991926838447182011-08-31T10:05:40.262+02:002011-08-31T10:05:40.262+02:00Other people have mentioned most things that I wan...Other people have mentioned most things that I wanted to say, but more importantly - I still don't see how you justify DBM without justifying voice chat. After all, DBM is spoon-feeding, but in written/flashing form, rather than in vocal form.Squishalothttp://www.wowhead.com/user=Squishalotnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-46293579208196159212011-08-31T09:54:32.020+02:002011-08-31T09:54:32.020+02:00You wont even find at this time a guide for most h...You wont even find at this time a guide for most hardmodes. <br />Made you raid to much normalmodes, where a Person wrote a guide with a strat that he thinks, its the best.<br /><br />This doesnt work in Hardmodes atm. The main strat are set, but in every hardmode you have several key positions.<br /><br />Lets take an easy example and only 1 mechanic: Baleroc HM Shards (10m): Will you use a shadow priest for the first shard so the healers get fast stacks? When do you start your cooldowns an which cooldowns. Probably disperson on 19, aura mastery on 15? -> The shadowpriest wiped? Why? In the next try the MT dies. Why? Next try everyone survives, but tank dies to Decimation Blades.<br /><br />You have no written guide, that explains you why all those things happend. You dont have a bossmod jumping on you: Hey RL, you wiped to the Decimation Blades at 3 Min, because the MT had a no avoidance luck on the pull, so he had to use more CD's than usual. At the same moment 1 healer slacked at the 1. shard and only got 70 Stacks. Oh and you only survived the Other blades because the MT had dodge luck or a healer critted.<br /><br />No you see the MT dieing at 3 Min to a decimation Blade and you will have no clue why... Because of no guide, you dont know whether 70 Stacks are good or bad, you dont even know about the shadowpriest tactic ;)<br /><br />This was only a example, you dont even have to use a shadowpriest tactic. There are other ways, like 3 healing it. Or using a 3 dd rotation for the shards at 50%.<br /><br />Not only top 10 guilds have to work without guides ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-45585474572089268602011-08-31T09:38:34.599+02:002011-08-31T09:38:34.599+02:00Not all situational information is provided by DBM...Not all situational information is provided by DBM. <br /><br />The most obvious example is Ryolith. Atm he is nerfed to nothing, but while it was still normal to have 5 volcanoes up and 2 of them active, shouting what to aim for was crucial.<br /><br />Also, ad hoc rearranging of crystal tankers when someone fails at Baleroc (and if you intend to make your firstkill a perfect one, good luck, but it will take like 2 extra weeks).<br /><br />There's also the little things, like warrior tanking Shannox (especially HC) will at some point need to heroic leap away to drop stacks. This will often take him out of healing range. Healer must know when that will happen.<br /><br />Giving order to kill the last add in 2nd transition of Ragnaros. <br /><br />Then there is stuff, that some people see better than others. Often tanks are in the best position to monitor this or that mechanic because everyone else needs to look out for 5 more mechanics all the time (Ragnaros is one of those).Grimnoreply@blogger.com