tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post1787019369914993863..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: Why PvP?Gevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-44569380826076635332011-06-02T07:03:25.463+02:002011-06-02T07:03:25.463+02:00Csdx, what I meant is that the percentages are mea...Csdx, what I meant is that the percentages are meaningless. Audio compliments video. The optimization lies in how you let it compliment video. And how you optimize your input methods. After all, you cannot get out of fire without mouse/keyboard.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-6729711999754616482011-06-02T03:42:52.471+02:002011-06-02T03:42:52.471+02:00I'm surprised that Gevlon ignores the high amo...I'm surprised that Gevlon ignores the high amount of evidence and goes on to make this claim <i>"voice chat is a disadvantage if people have brain. No leader can see your situation and make decisions for you as fast as you do"</i>. If it were a disadvantage, then high-end guilds (e.g. Paragorn) would not be using it. Does Gevlon accusing the members of having no brains??<br /><br />Regardless, there are a lot of important uses for voice chat - things like coordinating burst on bosses or calling out things that are happening. The calling out does not necessarily need to be the domain of the raid leader only. I'm not claiming that voice chat is necessary for high-end raiding (I think the former Nihilium did this before), but it certainly helps and gives and advantage.Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18381576369055180683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-18968196404468349132011-06-02T02:23:43.020+02:002011-06-02T02:23:43.020+02:00@ everybody talking about the voice chat issue:
I...@ everybody talking about the voice chat issue:<br /><br />I'm personally wondering why Gevlon doesn't trust his self-selected good players not to abuse voice chat, seeing as his primary worry is about cluttering the chat channel. Shouldn't PuG members, being the asocial, intelligent people that they are supposed to be, be able to sort out when they should and shouldn't be saying things on Vent?<br /><br />Or are they not really the asocial, intelligent people that they are supposed to be, and simply sheep under the direction of a single leader?Squishalothttp://www.wowhead.com/user=Squishalotnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-85649008816322262242011-06-02T02:11:32.917+02:002011-06-02T02:11:32.917+02:00@Anon "99% sight / 1% hearing is a bold state...@Anon "99% sight / 1% hearing is a bold statement, with no argument to back this up..."<br /><br />It's not so bold, what audio only cues have you used in wow? Remember the mantra is 'don't stand in the fire' not 'don't stand in the noisy area'. Try playing with no sound versus playing with no monitor, I assure you it's at least 99x easier.<br /><br />On voice chat:<br />It is a good tool because audio + visual is easier for anyone to process than visual + visual, even in the best laid out UI. For example, would you rather 1) drive down the highway listening to an audio book, or 2) drive down the highway trying to read a book. That's the difference between text chat and voice chat. Expect to crash more often even with highly skilled and competent people. Sure someone who can read and drive might be more skilled than an audiobooker, but giving that person a audio tape as well will just make them that much better.csdxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-34508208433058788072011-06-02T00:48:56.026+02:002011-06-02T00:48:56.026+02:00Gevlon, I am surprised that you are unable to see ...Gevlon, I am surprised that you are unable to see how good players could take advantage of an instant, flexible way to communicate.<br /><br />There is a reason in team sports (basketball, volleyball, etc) players are expected to talk and communicate with their teammates on the court. That reason is not to cover up for weaker players but instead to work together more effectively.<br /><br />Given the fact that you recognize communication is important (otherwise you would have banned typed chat as well) it should be obvious to you as well that the instant flexibility that comes with voice communication would be very valuable.Jimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-53750432402380212522011-06-01T23:09:40.947+02:002011-06-01T23:09:40.947+02:00Gevlon, you've shown that an asocial organizat...Gevlon, you've shown that an asocial organization can have some success. Yet social, casual guilds like mine (also without attendance, ilevel, achievement or activity requirements) have done just as well. This shows that an asocial environment is incidental to downing bosses without abusive lolkids or micromanaging raid leaders.<br /><br />If The PuG goes into RBGs and becomes "world class", you'll show the same thing: that an asocial environment can spawn success but that other guilds with other principles can achieve equal success. Even if you surprise your doubters, I don't see how this moves you beyond being a niche guild.<br /><br />The question isn't whether the asocial idea works but whether it can be compelling enough to a broad range of players.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-80262191358291651272011-06-01T22:32:54.690+02:002011-06-01T22:32:54.690+02:00"WoW is predominantly, in 99% of cases visual..."WoW is predominantly, in 99% of cases visual based. Theres virtually no feedback inside of the game aside from visual."<br /><br />Yes, obviously. There is no touch, taste or smell feedback. There is however hearing feedback (e.g. DBM whining you are standing in the fire). 99% sight / 1% hearing is a bold statement, with no argument to back this up. Text, just like the whole screen, is also visual. The trick is to have important information in your peripheral vision (usually the middle of the screen) while making optimal usage of audio feedback as well.<br /><br />If there are DPS who can maintain high DPS while following the tactics of the fight and adapting to the situation at hand while another person can only maintain high DPS and remain focussed on that (or obsessed with the meters) then one is better player than the other. For the other players (who he does not play with) it is of no concern whether that is because person A drank coffee, because he is using vent, because he trained himself to do it for 20 hours, or because his mother is looking over his shoulders providing him important feedback. <i>He did it</i>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-36877878965209397332011-06-01T21:15:10.811+02:002011-06-01T21:15:10.811+02:00I sort of understand the no voice chat thing for r...I sort of understand the no voice chat thing for raids, because the goal of the PuG was never to down everything at any cost, and I understand that you want individual performance. It is, however, definitely a hindrance, and the idea of being "world class" in PvE or PvP without it is silly.<br /><br />The argument that three people talking about their fight at LM is useless to the rest of the BG only shows that you have a personal problem with being overstimulated by auditory information. If you want to be world class, you have to get better, plain and simple. You have to be able to process information from multiple sources, figure out which is relevant, and apply it while executing your own fight and making good tactical decisions.<br /><br />You might even be right that for most people it is hard to pay full attention to what they are doing when other people are talking about something else. World class PvPers are not among those people.<br /><br />Voice chat may be good for bad players who can't make their own decisions, and bad for players "with a brain," but it is even better for players with optimally functioning brains.Sthennohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05429676469805661834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-10288649536588813942011-06-01T21:14:30.963+02:002011-06-01T21:14:30.963+02:00Why no "threshold level" of resilience t...Why no "threshold level" of resilience to enter TB? They have ilevel for heroics so why not minimum res?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-40950104247221833622011-06-01T20:20:31.213+02:002011-06-01T20:20:31.213+02:00I don't even understand why Gevlon has the bel...I don't even understand why Gevlon has the belief that groups without voice chat can be of a similar level to those with it. There doesn't seem to be a single reason for believing so, and all the evidence points to the contrary. The same is true for Arena, and raids.<br /><br />It is a completely moronic idea to compete with 'top guilds' without voice chat. The sooner you realise that the less frustrated you will be with your distinctly average performance. <br /><br />Better to be happy with what you are, a guild serving a niche of players who want to raid and do BGs without inane chat in guild and with no attendance requirements. <br /><br />You have zero chance of competing with the top guilds, or of attracting top players in any case, without voice chat.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-69538571127445193952011-06-01T18:03:57.789+02:002011-06-01T18:03:57.789+02:00@Ermak-
"With so many nay-sayers I got a dej...@Ermak-<br /><br /><i>"With so many nay-sayers I got a deja vu. In the past ICC was thought of as not doable by casuals in blues, but look at that - only PP, BQL, Sindy and LK were left alive."</i><br /><br />Yes, some hard-mode veterans did the easier bosses in ICC on their blues-only alts. I was a nay-sayer then, and remain one today. I'm not going to give them credit for accomplishing things they set out to do (clear ICC), but didn't (and, most likely, couldn't).Wilsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-79018035233122998772011-06-01T17:07:20.692+02:002011-06-01T17:07:20.692+02:00My Rated Battleground team would be never reach 20...My Rated Battleground team would be never reach 2000 MMR without our Vent server...<br /><br /><br /><br />"3 incoming to lumbermill!!"<br /><br />"Steven, disengage and heal at the lumbermill"<br /><br />"DPS spike the druid Nebu!"<br /><br />"I need AoE at the goldmine, they're trying to cap!"<br /><br />"Respawns in 9 seconds - where do you need backup?"<br /><br />And that's just Arathi Basin for starters.Bernardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08909382806966279602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-57583733105028082712011-06-01T16:01:29.901+02:002011-06-01T16:01:29.901+02:00Im sorry Ermak. Im not going to suspend my views o...Im sorry Ermak. Im not going to suspend my views on PvP to fit an arbitrary cast of asocial rules, and I ll be damned if I ll do so quietly.<br /><br />Also, I find your obeservation insulting. It doesnt matter what I *feel*. I try my best in every fight. It does not matter what my feelings are on the subject of voice chat.<br /><br />*Try our best* to *feel good after* is not good enough for me. In fact, its borderline stupid. I feel best after winning, using everything I can. Ill follow Gevlon because its his project and so far the PuG is the only guild who does both PvE and PvP (RBGs) with no requirement for attendance or {help teh guld, respec plz}. <br /><br />Gevlon has something to prove, I dont. I m actually not even interested in what his goals are. I m not going to subscribe, however, to a stupid idea. I agree with the rationale for PvE, and to an extent for PvP. (Voice comm is gemming +40 stat gems over +36 ones. Meaning it s the top of the game improvement.)<br /><br />For now, sure, we can improve without voice chat. A lot. However, this will not be enough for *world class*. Good enough to be good, but not good enough for the top.Lyxinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-11546311956611762722011-06-01T15:27:42.199+02:002011-06-01T15:27:42.199+02:00Another reason.
Tunnel Vision is constantly put d...Another reason.<br /><br />Tunnel Vision is constantly put down as a mark of a bad player. Its not quite true.<br /><br />WoW is predominantly, in 99% of cases visual based. Theres virtually no feedback inside of the game aside from visual. This means that in a tense PvP situation, when you re hard pressed to read visual stimuly from your screen, it is hard to integrate the text from the corner of your screen in your thought patterns. (Mainly because vision is serial-based).<br /><br />You can train and become adaptive with this, but its been scientifically proven that the human brain works at a higher efficiency if different information is relayed through different channels at the same time.<br /><br />Serial bursts of information are considerably slower than parralel ones.<br /><br />Of course, the brain operates at a speed of between 1 m/s and 10 m/s (which is a lot slower than electronics wich work at about 300000 km/s) so in an ideal situation, doubling the channels of communication doubles information througput. (Of course, language is far from ideal, having a large degree of redundancy.)<br /><br />Theres another point.<br /><br />Youre basing your whole theory on the assumption that two intelligent players will make the best choice for the system they re in. This assumption is contradicted by numerous studies in game theory, in which Ill just example Prisoners Dilemma, and the Chicken Game.<br /><br />In Prisoners Dilemma, optimal personal strategy is not globally optimal. <br /><br />In the Chicken game, again, both players following optimal strategy will end up with a suboptimal result.<br /><br />I highly doubt we re going to get anywhere near world class.Lyxinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-10008093715758064602011-06-01T15:23:24.014+02:002011-06-01T15:23:24.014+02:00@Gevlon: There no such thing as perfect execution....@Gevlon: There no such thing as perfect execution. Everybody makes mistakes and there is 25 people who can make mistakes. To react when something is not according to script is what makes good player good. And when you can come up with something which helps other player in raid than your are outstanding player.<br /><br />On the other hand you can make lot of mistakes in battleground and nobody notice until you make something really moronic.Juminanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-57009001016065843132011-06-01T15:14:16.290+02:002011-06-01T15:14:16.290+02:00The voice chat question is one of your weak points...The voice chat question is one of your weak points. Not that I don't understand your point, but decreasing the effectiveness of the group you have at hand by not using all the tools you have at your disposal is moronicAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-54969206541603340472011-06-01T15:10:58.845+02:002011-06-01T15:10:58.845+02:00@Jumina: Hard modes need perfect EXECUTION. It'...@Jumina: Hard modes need perfect EXECUTION. It's hard.<br /><br />Not complicated though.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-27211840982998673592011-06-01T14:36:51.050+02:002011-06-01T14:36:51.050+02:00@ErmK:
"Actually "relaying infomation&qu...@ErmK:<br />"Actually "relaying infomation" can be achieved just by looking at the map and/or raid frames. It's not like we suffer from tunnel vision (and practice can help us to resist it in the heat of the fight)."<br /><br />Others in this post have already presented several examples of what I was trying to discuss, chief among them the necessity to be fluid in a bg battle and reallocate forces very quickly.<br /><br />We already face one disadvantage in PvP: our team is fully open with no pre-defined fixed roster (as appropriate following guild rules). Having no voice chat to try and exchange information seem to an additional unnecessary disadvantage.<br /><br />Personally I see no evil in trying out voice communication for rbg's. If it degenerates into a mess of shouting and yelling we can always backtrack on that decision.<br /><br />Evolution and progress (which I think all will agree is a sign of intelligence) is achieved by trying out new things, even taking wrong paths (often by taking wrong paths), and then learning from the mistakes and coming back to correct them.<br /><br />Having said that I also believe that we still have a lot to learn in our rbgs and PvP skills before voice chat will be the break or make feature (at least I have, making no particular claims about the others): I still have lot's of work in terms of learning PvP in general and rbg's strategy in particular.Ihodael of Darnassusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-43150336559962885332011-06-01T14:30:44.036+02:002011-06-01T14:30:44.036+02:00So very often I hear argument saying: "PvE is...So very often I hear argument saying: "PvE is scripted predictable event while PvP is unpredictable and therefore so much more difficult".<br /><br />I am a raid leader of a semi HC guild (raiding only 3 times a week) and we are currently on 12/13HC. And tell me why if PvE is so easy and predictable its so difficult to find players who can keep pace with us. And players we hire usually have a few hard modes down so they are "more progressed" than the PuG. Still they often lack the ability to move properly or interrupt properly or lack dps or etc.<br /><br />And the same goes for voice chat. Its not actually "a chat". Nor its for me to tell people what they are doing wrong during the fight. Its there to give other player important information like "I have cinder xy please kick instead me". And this is important to know about voice chat. If the player can't speak when its necessary it means he is not very good player. <br /><br />If you don't need the voice chat in a battleground than either you have so much time during the fight you can type as much as you want or there is not so much to say to the other players which means everything is pretty predictable.Juminanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-973174167071301232011-06-01T14:01:39.440+02:002011-06-01T14:01:39.440+02:00With so many nay-sayers I got a deja vu. In the pa...With so many nay-sayers I got a deja vu. In the past ICC was thought of as not doable by casuals in blues, but look at that - only PP, BQL, Sindy and LK were left alive.<br />So let's give it a try. Not "fine, I'll do it your way but deep inside I want us to fail just to disaprove the point". To really try and win without voice comm against some good team. That would feel great, don't you think?Ermaknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-39964258461916866392011-06-01T13:02:04.181+02:002011-06-01T13:02:04.181+02:00Gevlon, I have to side with the others here that i...Gevlon, I have to side with the others here that if you want to do world class PVP, you do need voice chat. The reason why is obvious.<br /><br />In PVE you say, that the encounters are scripted. The possibilities are limited, as are the failure modes. Someone who needs voice chat to tell them they stand in the fire, or that the boss will enrage is simply not prepared.<br /><br />In PVP this all changes dramatically. Every player already uses their eyes to focus on the opponents and their team, and has to react quickly. Furthermore, although there is an optimal way of doing stuff in PVP in a vacuum, it is not a vacuum. Your opponents will adapt and change their behaviour. Especially in RBGs, more so than Arena, you cannot foresee all the changes happening. People need to be able to make quick decisions (otherwise they will suck at pvp anyway), but also need to be able to quickly communicate them WHILE being engaged in an unpredictable battle, with an uncertain number of allies and opponents. <br /><br />You see 3 dudes running towards a base, where there is only 1 defender. You are 4 at your flag. 1 or 2 should move to the other base, but if you type it, it will be too late already. You can't really prepare it well in a macro, and even if you do manage to, then the 4 at the base need to read it, and act upon the decision. Valuable time is lost, as is the base.<br /><br />In PVP, where seconds count more than PVE, and where the situations are continuously changing and unpredictable, you will need voice chat to reach world class. <br /><br />Unfortunately I just moved to Horde, or I would have joined you on the PVP part for the PuGChopsuinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-2961227074550701382011-06-01T12:43:25.130+02:002011-06-01T12:43:25.130+02:00@Iodael
Actually "relaying infomation" c...@Iodael<br />Actually "relaying infomation" can be achieved just by looking at the map and/or raid frames. It's not like we suffer from tunnel vision (and practice can help us to resist it in the heat of the fight).ErmKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-35954810922146762002011-06-01T12:36:32.987+02:002011-06-01T12:36:32.987+02:00As for voice chat in PvP you're flat out wrong...As for voice chat in PvP you're flat out wrong Gevlon.<br /><br />As a matter of fact, you're joining the M&S club if you refuse competently used direct communication in a combat situation.<br /><br />There's a reason succesful military operations depend so heavily on good information, communication and analysis.<br /><br />And no, military communications has nothing to do with handing out a radio to every idiot to implement some kind of sex-hotline during field action.Sten Düringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06676541059143438525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-76188863700497088392011-06-01T12:10:52.827+02:002011-06-01T12:10:52.827+02:00Why PvP in WoW I think is the harder question to a...Why PvP in WoW I think is the harder question to answer. <br /><br />MMOs, who sell subscriptions by the month, want to give advantages who have spent more time/$ on the game. How long you have subscribed or how many weeks of arenas you have endured overcoming lack of skill seems like something for M&S.<br /><br />And WoW is mostly about PvE, so players interested in PvP tend to choose a different game.<br /><br />And of course voice is a help in PvP with multiple resource nodes not in sight of each other doing an unscripted fight. It is certainly doable without voice; but it is a handicap.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-36430154018923443382011-06-01T12:08:39.419+02:002011-06-01T12:08:39.419+02:00@Gevlon
No one uses voice chat in rBGs that way. O...@Gevlon<br /><i>No one uses voice chat in rBGs that way. One guy speaks issuing orders to the others.</i><br /><br />Wrong!<br /><br />While in AB it is indeed hard to use voice chat to properly communicate targets and CCs, it is pretty much the same as arena in Capture-the-Flag BGs. Also a lot like that in Gilneas with its 3 bases and most fighting going on in one of them.<br /><br />And even in AB it is far more efficient to call out incomings (with numbers and setups) over voice chat, than it is to type. <br /><br />An anon mentioned wasting cooldowns in arena due to slow communication, now picture this:<br />Arathi Basin. Fights going on in LM and BS. The situation calls for 1 person to move from LM to BS. If two people figure this out and both jump at the same time its even worse for their team than wasting a CD.<br />If they stop to type "going bs" that requires them to stop fighting for a couple of seconds and is also slower than calling it out on Vent.<br /><br />Not to mention, that looking at the map and figuring out how many players are where to come to the conclusion that 1 must move to BS also results in downtime that could be saved if someone in BS would just report the situation and LM could figure out what to do while engaged with the enemy.<br /><br />RBG is just 10 people. It is quite possible for 10 people to make efficient use of a single voice chat channel without polluting it too much with noise.Grimnoreply@blogger.com