tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post1491237731787306388..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: "Kill dance from raids!" projectGevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-88867334062992504962011-11-17T10:28:34.359+01:002011-11-17T10:28:34.359+01:00Oh, and one more very common mistake that you also...Oh, and one more very common mistake that you also make: PvE is NOT about beating scripts. Thinking that PvE is about killing monsters is like thinking that olympic competitions of bowmen are about killing targets. They are not. They are about showing that you're a better shooter than the other guys, but indirectly, without blood and deaths.Killanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08750614741197110305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-2482353186163669422011-11-17T10:17:39.176+01:002011-11-17T10:17:39.176+01:00Like your blog. And while I agree that PvE is some...Like your blog. And while I agree that PvE is some sort of the dance, you clearly misunderstand 2 things:<br /><br />1. DPS and HPS are important on some levels of PvE. You say they aren't only because you play on a level where they are indeed irrelevant. Prior nerfs most heroic enrage timers are very challenging, so you cannot defeat them without gear.<br /><br />2. Everything is a dance, not only PvE. :) Look at your own guides to BGs. Nothing familiar? It's a script. Maybe a bit more complicated than PvE ones, but still a script. Everything is a scripted dance, the only thing that's different is its complexity. So saying PvE is a dance is pretty much meaningless, since there's nothing new in that.Killanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08750614741197110305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-92085125433006243342011-11-15T19:35:43.573+01:002011-11-15T19:35:43.573+01:00I don't think you'll be able to beat heroi...I don't think you'll be able to beat heroic modes (well, I shouldn't say that, I should say that I don't think you would have been able to beat the heroic modes that I've experienced without gearing up - I haven't played any Firelands content). But, that being said, I'm really glad that you don't care that people think you can't do it and that you're out to prove us wrong.Sthennohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05429676469805661834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-33914580029790684072011-11-15T16:04:52.116+01:002011-11-15T16:04:52.116+01:00Gevlon, do I get it wrong or are you contradicting...Gevlon, do I get it wrong or are you contradicting?<br /><br />"We will destroy the dance design by proving that in dance raids farming is counter-productive."<br /><br />"We will use every available gear outside farming the current tier normal and hard mode bosses. You can craft, you can use PvP, you can buy BoE, get Valor, go LFR, farm the nerfed-to ground FL"<br /><br />So, we will prove that farming is counter-productive by counter-productive farming (of worse gear than we could get by killing bosses or of farming better gear in sub-optimal way - via VP)<br /><br />Also: "So we simply recreate Undergeared with a very slight under-gearing: we will only miss items from the current tier farm raids"<br /><br />1) No, you would not be undergeared for normal modes if you only had gear from last tier.<br /><br />2) You will not miss gear from current tier farm raids. Because you said you will wear BoE (that drop from trash, which is farm content right off the bat) and also you will wear VP gear and there is 10 pieces for every class in 4.3.<br /><br />So what is really the point or goal of the project?Deepfriedegghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01845991079192155377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-86676174172821645692011-11-14T21:33:40.955+01:002011-11-14T21:33:40.955+01:00@Ephemeron: "The Path of the Smart Analytical...@Ephemeron: "The Path of the Smart Analytical Human" doesn't work because of required speed of response. Analytical mind is not that fast if you have to think and match "mental image" to practice for first time... and for second time... actually, it never gets fast enough until it can bypass analytical part entirely.<br /><br />Just imagine that every mechanic gets extra 3-second delay, and every direct damage is replaced with 3-second dot instead... how much easier will both normal and heroic encounters get? Don't you think that entire difficulty comes from required speed of response, as well as responding to more less-forgiving things at the same time for "heroic" version?<br /><br />In fact, "speed" is the most common complaint about dancing.<br /><br />There is also "hidden cost" in learning actual group patterns - which can differ quite a bit from "youtube videos" or "forum tactics" in important details. Groups often start to wipe if just group MT leaves because people start to rely on "learned" movement and positioning based on specific person preferences after running with him for a while.<br /><br />There are also terrain specifics - especially important for Shannox, because there are some highly unpredictable small stone obstacles that can stop your run - or even los your healer. Not a thing that can be easily practiced beforehand since in actual fight you also need to dodge unpredictable trap placements.<br /><br />Many people go into heroic raids with boss kills in thousands... and still wipe hundreds of times. If analytical part would actually work, it would never happen.Shalckerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04929708411856414654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-85275316572159404572011-11-14T20:20:56.924+01:002011-11-14T20:20:56.924+01:00From the patch 3.2.0 notes: "In order to allo...From the patch 3.2.0 notes: "In order to allow for parties and raids to progress through instances <b>at their own pace</b>, players can now extend an instance ID on an individual basis." (emphasis mine)<br /><br />So, assuming you succeed in killing every boss in both modes before .... before what exactly? You don't say. Before the next tier is released? Before 10,000 other guilds? Before 1000 other guilds? Before enough people lose interest that you can't run raids anymore? Hard to know if you've succeeded or not when you don't define success.<br /><br />Anyhow. Assuming you succeed in killing every boss in both modes before whatever, why would Blizzard look at your results and think anything other than "they progressed at their own pace. Working as intended."?Wilsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-12736697334928555332011-11-14T19:56:18.671+01:002011-11-14T19:56:18.671+01:00"Are you good at DPSing as a mage? Too bad, y..."Are you good at DPSing as a mage? Too bad, you need to be good at dancing instead."<br /><br />You need to be good at DPSing _and_ dancing on Rag HC! On the other fights if there is a DPS/gear check then there is virtually no dance.<br /><br />There is only 1 fight where what you say is true: Alysrazor (even pre-nerf). Shannox HC does not require that much dance (don't stand in the trap) but it does require raid movement and communication on resetting debuff. There is individual skill required for rage (2 ranged can do that), slowing (1 ranged can do that), kiting (tanks; communication recommended). You could add Majordomo to the list, but the key to Majordomo is keeping your concentration high and that requires skill, awareness, and tactical raid positioning (latter is pre-planned).<br /><br />The other bosses (excluding end boss) all have little dance. The only dance Rhyolith has is don't stand in the fire. In P2 HC, the additional dance is again a variation of don't stand in the fire (without pre-assigned stack position) plus a burn phase. Beth HC requires communication and occasional dance when soakers fail (they will). The dance up is the only dance, same as normal boils down to don't stand in fire. For the rest; rotation/gear check. Baleroc same. Shannox isn't even a gearcheck on HC, and Alys (indeed a dance fight) is easily farmed by guilds.<br /><br />PS: On my realm, HC is being PuGed ever since nerf, and Shannox was PuGed pre-nerf.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-63204973996058394402011-11-14T19:44:48.710+01:002011-11-14T19:44:48.710+01:00"I kinda miss output based raids. I don't..."I kinda miss output based raids. I don't have time to spend 4 hours 3 nights a week to wipe endlessly on Elemental Council..."<br /><br />You either have time to raid, or you don't.<br /><br />I understand what you're saying - you don't want to wipe. But you either have time to raid - or you don't, regardless of wipes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-41200850014515728902011-11-14T19:33:48.065+01:002011-11-14T19:33:48.065+01:00"And as a prove gear was irellevant, first ki..."And as a prove gear was irellevant, first kill of Ragnaros HC was in 3rd reset."<br /><br />Which means they had significant gear drops in their 25m (= almost nothing sharded). They also had the BiS HC gear from 4.0. You know why? Because they farmed it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-33261894227938121362011-11-14T19:27:03.763+01:002011-11-14T19:27:03.763+01:00You have nothing to prove because Blizzard has alr...You have nothing to prove because Blizzard has already announced the 5.0 raids will be more PuG friendly. Therefore, your announcement is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Since they said their changes for this won't be reflected in 4.3 I doubt this refers to LFR.<br /><br />On normal FL and 4.0 normal I am right there with you, I agree with you. On HC, you are wrong. There is no way you, with your non-farm raid, would have killed Baleroc HC pre-nerf without having farmed the other bosses. Even if you were very lucky with drops and had the same people coming back, it is impossible to kill that boss pre-nerf without having farmed a lot of HC gear. On both 10m HC and 25m HC that boss is a gearcheck, with very little dance. If you believe that boss has a lot of dance on HM then I find that quite retarded given it is a similar fight to Mother Shahraz or the new BH boss. There is also no way you could've done this on Ragnaros HC. The reason Paragon did it is because they had BiS gear from 4.0. E.g. they farmed trinkets like Shard of Woe (that is just one example); whereas you specifically forbid any farming whatsoever. Paragon also did farm (they did not kill Ragnaros in the first week). So, you are essentially saying The PuG is better than Paragon.<br /><br />Finally, you cannot judge on any dance in FL HC since you have not done the encounters. Every post complaining about too much dance in FL concerns about FL normal; therefore your claim about HC is wishful thinking, and far fedged. Even your HC progress in 4.0 is only 2/13: Halfus and Maloriak. I wish you had more experience because I do value your viewpoint (even though I don't always agree), alas.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-29729097742854751582011-11-14T17:16:23.600+01:002011-11-14T17:16:23.600+01:00Actually, this is the approach our guild took.
In...Actually, this is the approach our guild took.<br /><br />In our guild we have so many irregular scheduled players having a consistent group to practice a fight never happened.<br /><br />The only way we succeeded was to hold the lock and kill the bosses one at a time. <br /><br />If we had reset, we would never have seen the last boss before the next raid was introduced.jtrackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14738321466129271631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-22338011413712430572011-11-14T15:45:27.616+01:002011-11-14T15:45:27.616+01:00>why the dance is so bad
It wouldn't be if...>why the dance is so bad<br /><br />It wouldn't be if used sparingly. But when it is the *only* challenge in raiding, it overtakes everything else. Are you good at DPSing as a mage? Too bad, you need to be good at dancing instead. Are you great at CC and protecting healers? too bad, this fight is all about the dance. Are you an awesome offtank who can still put out high DPS when you aren't tanking? Too bad, this fight is all about the dance.Angry Writerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12549397783891513499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-81191257719930737292011-11-14T15:23:35.888+01:002011-11-14T15:23:35.888+01:00Really, you get comments like that? People are mor...Really, you get comments like that? People are more retarded than I thought.<br /><br />What I don't understand is how are the developers be made aware of your project.<br /><br />But, it seems like a good idea. I kinda miss output based raids. I don't have time to spend 4 hours 3 nights a week to wipe endlessly on Elemental Council...JackTheManiacnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-45992194721751440312011-11-14T14:48:19.829+01:002011-11-14T14:48:19.829+01:00Good idea, but won't work in hardmodes. Unless...Good idea, but won't work in hardmodes. Unless these hardmodes will be much easier than current ones (pre nerf).Péter Zoltánhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01703829981771783158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-74622775821942255302011-11-14T14:45:31.141+01:002011-11-14T14:45:31.141+01:00They will design encounters that require both danc...They will design encounters that require both dance <b>and</b> a certain non-trivial level of output.Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-73100319634631536002011-11-14T14:34:46.906+01:002011-11-14T14:34:46.906+01:00Gevlon, post after post you complain about the &qu...Gevlon, post after post you complain about the "dance." You have still failed to explain why the dance is so bad. If people want to see if they can maximize their DPS/HPS output, they can heal themselves standing at the AH in Orgrimmar or shoot at a training dummy. The only difference between that and a Patchwerk boss fight is the dance. Most people are bored off their asses in Patchwerk fights, so why knock the fact that you have to learn some choreography for each fight?Winterpinehttp://www.econowow.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-88842631144170281022011-11-14T14:15:03.607+01:002011-11-14T14:15:03.607+01:00I would like to know one thing. Why the "danc...I would like to know one thing. Why the "dancing" is "gimmick and scripted" while pushing several keys in some order to make dps is not. I understand it can be fun to watch you cooldowns and pushing keys in the right moment. But I can't see why is this different or better than watching the encounter and make proper movements.<br /><br />Or is it just the fact some stupid mistake can wipe the raid? The bad feeling of responsibility when you make a mistake or helplessness when someone other makes a mistake?<br /><br />BTW: Great summary Ephemeron.Juminanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-20194826595465742372011-11-14T13:13:23.196+01:002011-11-14T13:13:23.196+01:00I had an experience that actually proves your theo...I had an experience that actually proves your theory about only boss skills, which are not universanl in game.<br /><br />After our 2nd or 3rd ragnaros kill, we had still much time till we call the raid so we decided to kill nefarian, since someone had a save for him from a pug.<br /><br />The result was we wiped more times in nefarian than ragnaros. We all had killed nefarian in the past, and we had many 378 pieces from firelands. Though nefarian proved "harder" than ragnaros, because we were working on ragnaros and players were more familiar with his dance mechanics.<br /><br />There are some requirements that become more strict in heroics in terms of DPS and HPS but the fact is that those requirements are far below what a class can do at it's best.Dimosnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-87283005694454739752011-11-14T12:12:34.847+01:002011-11-14T12:12:34.847+01:00A system where any boss kill is an actual guild fi...A system where any boss kill is an actual guild first kill? Where I don't have to learn the fight from 9 other people who already know this and are getting frustrated because "this is nothing, look, we can all do this"?<br /><br />Count me in.Ulrikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00184549450504424731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-89786421597840682092011-11-14T12:03:13.167+01:002011-11-14T12:03:13.167+01:00(Continued from the previous comment)
So let'...<i>(Continued from the previous comment)</i><br /><br />So let's look at Heroic Shannox again and see what can one learn from it:<br /><br /><b>1) Face Rage.</b><br /><br /><i>"I learned how to quickly press my "nuke Rageface" macro when DBM does the Face Rage alert. This is a totally new skill, so I had to wipe a lot before I memorized it. Alas, this skill is totally useless against any other enemy using any other ability." - A-type Raider.</i><br /><br /><i>"I practiced my "rapid target switching" meta-skill. It's fundamentally similar to nuking tentacles on Cho'gall, breaking Maloriak's frost tombs, destroying chains on the first boss in BRC or killing Saurfang's bloodbeasts. And this practice will come in handy on Alysrazor's Molten Meteors and Ragnaros's Sons." - B-type Raider.</i><br /><br /><b>2) Immolation Traps.</b><br /><br /><i>"I learned how to avoid immolation traps on the ground. This is a totally new skill, so I had to wipe a lot before I memorized it. Alas, this skill is totally useless against any other bad stuff on the ground." - A-type Raider.</i><br /><br /><i>"I practiced my "voidzone dodging" meta-skill. It's fundamentally similar to avoiding Atramedes's flame patches, Theralion's Dazzling Flames, Slabhide's falling rocks, or, for that matter, any other fire in the game. And this practice will come in handy when I'm navigating Rhyolith's lava trails and Majordomo's flame puddles" - B-type Raider.</i><br /><br /><b>3) Freezing Traps.</b><br /><br /><i>"I learned how to kite Rageface into a freezing trap to reset his stacks. This is a totally new skill, so I had to wipe a lot before I memorized it. Alas, this skill is totally useless against any other kitable enemy." - A-type Raider.</i><br /><br /><i>"I practiced my "kite mob to Zone X" meta-skill. It's fundamentally similar to running to chains on Jin'do, kiting Atramedes's breath in either phase, or pulling your little slime to second tank on Rotface. This practice will help when I'm fixated by a Drone/kamikaze add on Bethilac or chased by a Living Meteor on Ragnaros" - B-type Raider.</i><br /><br /><b>4) Jagged Tear.</b><br /><br /><i>"I learned how to kite Riplimb/Shannox long enough for the bad debuff to fall off. Furthermore, I discovered that all raiding is scripted and stupid and I hate it" - A-type Tank.</i><br /><br /><i>"I practiced my general kiting skills. Doing quick sprints while waiting for a debuff to fall is something that I've learned when running away from Erudax in Grim Batol or that Scourgelord guy from Pit of Saron. And this quick refresher on how to kite something through traps on the ground will make Alysrazor's Hatchling-driving much, much easier" - B-type Tank.</i><br /><br />And so on, and so forth. Any fight, any ability can be approached in these two ways. The sooner you convince yourself and your raidmates to switch to B-type thinking, the more rewarding your raid experience will become (in terms of both kills and fun).<br /><br />P.S. One final example from my personal experience:<br /><br />We've been struggling with post-nerf Heroic Baleroc. People kept making the same mistakes, spreading Tormented debuffs all around and killing each other. Finally, I spoke up: <br /><br /><i>"Guys, pretend that it's Alysrazor, and everyone else in the raid is a Brushfire. Unless you're countdown-linked with them; then they're a static Meteor during Firestorm".</i><br /><br />We killed him cleanly on the next attempt.Ephemeronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16403198085556121203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-23883276802969514352011-11-14T12:02:45.298+01:002011-11-14T12:02:45.298+01:00...players who completed the dance believe that th...<i>...players who completed the dance believe that they are "skilled" universally and not just learned a stupid scripted dance. Someone who doesn't die in Shannox fire is not having any skill that helps him play WoW anywhere else than at Shannox, but they think otherwise.</i><br /><br />Indeed we do. <br /><br />Why? Because we know that there are two primary ways to do any non-Patchwerk encounter:<br /><br /><b>A. The Path of the Dumb Scripted Robot.</b><br /><br />1) Read/watch/try out the encounter.<br />2) Memorize input signals (boss shouts, spell effects, DBM alerts).<br />3) Practice rote responses to said signals (run out of fire, collapse to yellow mark, etc.) until muscle memory develops.<br />4) Kill boss.<br />5) Proceed to next boss, repeat everything from scratch.<br /><br />That's the 'dance' model that you and Tobold hate so much. And as you've correctly noted, it doesn't allow for skill transfer between encounters. Fortunately, if you're raiding with intelligent people (and not dumb robotized monkeys), there's a different way of doing things.<br /><br /><b>B. The Path of the Smart Analytical Human.</b><br /><br />1) Read/watch/try out the encounter.<br />2) Analyze the abilities, reduce them to abstract concepts and determine patterns.<br />3) Apply "meta-raiding" skills acquired from previous experience.<br />4) Kill boss.<br />5) Analyze your performance.<br />6) Proceed to next boss, using newly acquired skills as a valuable asset.<br /><br />This mode of raiding is far more efficient *and* more fun. However, it required a functioning intelligent mind and the will to use it, so it's not for everyone.<br /><br /><i>(Continued in the next comment due to size limit)</i>Ephemeronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16403198085556121203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-64676428394257974642011-11-14T11:40:58.490+01:002011-11-14T11:40:58.490+01:00This project will as undergeared did proove nothin...This project will as undergeared did proove nothing. Every raider with even a moderate amount of experiance knew the bosses with the buff could be downed in blue gear as they were doing it on their alts regardless of the undergeared project. Of course they included parts beyond the heroic blues but the principles were the same that gear is irrelevant over ability.<br /><br /> Considering your endevours to remove your self from the M&S of the playerbase you seem permanently incentivised to proove yourself to them. Prooving your own self worth to a moron has zero reward. <br /><br />Regardless if you kill the bosses or not, your reward for doing so is a less enjoyable experience for yourself and your companians with this ruleset and ultimately rewards absolutely nothing.Preachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122301354552211863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-18502765629921378632011-11-14T11:40:32.739+01:002011-11-14T11:40:32.739+01:00@Deepfriedegg: no, not in 378, we will use every &...@Deepfriedegg: no, not in 378, we will use every "welfare" gear that can be gained. Baradin Hold drops, PvP gear, valor gear, daily quest rewards and so on.<br /><br />Also, we won't play strictly 1 day/week and can do other activities than raiding together, decreasing burnout.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-57068886478253126682011-11-14T11:31:54.319+01:002011-11-14T11:31:54.319+01:00Brute forcing down raid bosses will provide very l...Brute forcing down raid bosses will provide very little return for raiding for so many wipes. I believe that this might cause significant burnout in your raiders. <br /><br />To offset that perhaps you should offer a gold reward for progress kills. In addition to that offer a rather large one for a heroic rag kill.<br /><br />If you'ree not going to offer gear for raiding offer the next best thing, gold.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-75151132299022354002011-11-14T11:21:50.489+01:002011-11-14T11:21:50.489+01:00Well, there is one skill (or perhaps "talent&...Well, there is one skill (or perhaps "talent" would be a better word) relevant to dance-raiding: The ability to learn new dance moves quickly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com