tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post123112016230947605..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: To leech or not to leech?Gevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-19761411939574573502010-11-19T17:56:38.714+01:002010-11-19T17:56:38.714+01:00There's a lot of confusion about Game Theory h...There's a lot of confusion about Game Theory here. <br />This is not an iterated prisoner's dilemma, as another commenter posted. Such a game would require playing with the same player each time. In reality, you are playing against a N different players who follow some distribution of strategies. The key point here is that your strategy only has a 1/N effect on the distribution of strategies. This is studied in the field of Equilibrium Dynamics in game theory, and finds results VERY different from 2-player games. <br /><br />For instance, depending on the parameters, there may be stable equilibria at Coop-Coop AND Defect-Defect. However, whichever equilibrium happens first then becomes "sticky" insofar as the least rational thing to do is to play the opposite of everyone else (i.e. exactly what Gevlon said is optimal). Obviously this depends on the honor/hour/activity ratio, but that hasn't yet been established here.<br /><br />And yes, it is important to note that Gevlon is not correct when he claims that tit-for-tat is the optimal strategy. A.) He's talking about the wrong game type, B.) the findings were that tit-for-tat was the best performing strategy over other strategies in practice (not in theory as the word optimal suggests), and C.) Tit-for-tat's basis for success is premised on having effective punishment, which is definitely not the case when you are only 1 person on a thousand+ person server.Boxingtonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-27723834420134179902010-11-19T04:54:48.486+01:002010-11-19T04:54:48.486+01:00Here's a good example:
http://www.youtube.com...Here's a good example:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpahL4fu5R8Deepcuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06099682493289172172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-75761807001793064932010-11-19T01:26:21.224+01:002010-11-19T01:26:21.224+01:00@annon 21:35
How long does each keystroke take on...@annon 21:35<br /><br />How long does each keystroke take on average?Kuckucknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-39974995539390325132010-11-19T00:27:27.483+01:002010-11-19T00:27:27.483+01:00Anonymous (21:35) says:
"Working hard/cooper...Anonymous (21:35) says:<br /><br />"Working hard/cooperating always gets you more honor and more honor/clock-time than leeching."<br /><br />The haughty tone and lack of evidence in this post does not impress me. Try again with real numbers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-67784880576048802252010-11-18T22:11:25.597+01:002010-11-18T22:11:25.597+01:00"Working hard/cooperating always gets you mor..."Working hard/cooperating always gets you more honor and more honor/clock-time than leeching. "<br /><br />It may all be true, but let's all ask one simple question: Why do we play this game??<br /><br />I work because no work means no pay means no food. And I kinda need to eat.<br /><br />I join a bg in a game that is supposed to be my leisure time and all I see are mid field fighters. They can give me millions in gold and honor, but I'm not staying, participating or contributing to that battleground.<br /><br />15min debuff is better spent playing with my dog.<br /><br />I don't understand why we even have such debates. Imagine what would happen if on Lich King 9/10 players went afk, alt tab, autoshoot, run in to die...<br /><br />I do not leech. I do not contribute. I either fight with players or leave.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-69925832682625681592010-11-18T21:35:48.673+01:002010-11-18T21:35:48.673+01:00Working hard/cooperating always gets you more hono...Working hard/cooperating always gets you more honor and more honor/clock-time than leeching. So unless you are a social offended by justice (leechers getting the same as you), then you work hard regardless of whether there are 1% or 100% people cooperating.<br /><br />Pressing one key every few minutes is going to get you more honor/keystroke than any cooperation.<br /><br />So I do not see the "dilemma" Unless you are swayed by your emotions, if you are trying to maximize your honor per hour of the clock, then you always cooperate. If you are trying to maximize your honor per effort/keystroke you always leech. <br /><br />Yes, I assume most pvp leeches, at least the ones not driven by the sociopathic appeal of leeching, are doing it for the gems/gold as opposed to pvp gear. Although the 264 ring, neck, cloak, bracers were better than anything before ToC; certainly helped start the heroic grindfest. Counting WG marks, commendations, and HK, the weekly WG was nearly two cardinal rubies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-11652268242023530462010-11-18T21:14:01.036+01:002010-11-18T21:14:01.036+01:00To Soge:
There is an interesting thread on forum...To Soge: <br /><br />There is an interesting thread on forums, in which I wish for "no honor for loss" battlegrounds.<br /><br />Then the gold/gear/what not part would be non-existent and people would play them only in order to try to best the other team. (And, when win, to buy gear).<br /><br />Not so much different than raids today. If you don't kill a boss, you get nothing (yes, there is random stuff, some low gold, a ring if you get exalted on trash; however, if you constantly wipe on Marrowgar you get nothing!)<br />So, why is that allowed in battlegrounds?<br /><br />Wipe on Marrowgar= 0 points/emblems, 0 t10 gear<br />Fail in Battleground = enough honor to buy wrathfull weapon in 1 day (done it on alt).<br /><br />So, the system is flawed?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-47415985521069998052010-11-18T20:17:34.460+01:002010-11-18T20:17:34.460+01:00"Here's what I'm imagining: two playe..."Here's what I'm imagining: two players on the same faction and battle group run the same BG (but different instances of it) at the same time of day. One leeches and one plays hard to win. Each records the amount of real time, 'active' time and honor gained in the course of doing 20 BGs."<br /><br />I would love to see the results of this test and definitely encourage anyone that wants to do it. It's always nice to have actual numbers to discuss and argue over. This won't solve the PD question, but may shed some light on how closely PD is reflected in WoW BGs.<br /><br />I would also be interested in seeing a discussion of the methodology before anyone attempts the test. Perhaps the Goblin Society for Scientific Research can come to a consensus on the methodology for this test.Vesoomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-415035347018679872010-11-18T20:16:18.795+01:002010-11-18T20:16:18.795+01:00@19:07 Anonymous
You can use Honor to buy other t...@19:07 Anonymous<br /><br />You can use Honor to buy other things than PvP gear, such as money. BG AFKing a quite profittable Gold/hour activity. Launch a BG and go watch a Movie, play some other game, read a book, clean your house, work, or whatever. Check back every minute or so to see if you were reported for being AFK, and if then just go hit someone or die.Sogenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-5532116585612360782010-11-18T19:07:15.141+01:002010-11-18T19:07:15.141+01:00I believe that the most important question here is...I believe that the most important question here is:<br /><br />Why on God's Earth would someone queue for a battleground in order to leech it so that he can buy pvp gear?<br /><br />Yes, I've read the comment before, and asked many people but I still don't understand.<br /><br />F.e. I dislike raiding. There's nothing on this world that would force me into ICC. What on earth would I need pve gear then for?<br /><br />So, why do people do things they dislike? (Leeching is a byproduct of that).<br /><br />Let's say the gear part is nullified. (blizz sends all newly dinged epic set in mail). Who would then play battlegrounds? Is the only reason people play anything in Wow a shiny reward at the end?<br /><br />Just some random thoughts...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-45688388542857515912010-11-18T18:39:03.314+01:002010-11-18T18:39:03.314+01:00As pionted out PD is not the best choice to apply ...As pionted out PD is not the best choice to apply to the leeching problem. Whith honor in a BG we look at a 'common good'. I think there is an application for this in an extended PD version which includes groups and is not restricted to two players. Question than is not 'Do I defect or cooperate with the other player' but 'Is my cooperation necessary for the production of the common good'. Even punishment goes to the next level. It may be not necessary to punish but to reward the one who does the punishing. That would be applicable to your behaviour in WG (and WGclean). If like you can research this kind of PD to get a better theoretical grasp on leeching, I guess. The keyword(s) would be social dilemma (e.g. Hechter (1987):Principles of group solidarity)Crombachnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-15521495415125527832010-11-18T18:28:08.568+01:002010-11-18T18:28:08.568+01:00Tit for tat was shown to be superior only in a sim...Tit for tat was shown to be superior only in a simulation together with other strategies. This does not mean that it is always the optimal solution. It is quite likely that there are better strategies (wikipedia mentions "tit for tat with foregiveness") depending on circumstances/nature of other strategies present.Maartennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-49231896208543989522010-11-18T18:16:05.484+01:002010-11-18T18:16:05.484+01:00I see a lot of arguments here are based on calcula...I see a lot of arguments here are based on calculations of hypothetical (ie, made up on the spot) honor amounts. Has anybody bothered to, say, do ten BGs using each method with careful measurement and controls?<br /><br />Here's what I'm imagining: two players on the same faction and battlegroup run the same BG (but different instances of it) at the same time of day. One leeches and one plays hard to win. Each records the amount of real time, 'active' time and honor gained in the course of doing 20 BGs. Increment across all of the different BGs. Publish results.<br /><br />I think this would lay to rest a lot of the arguments here. Depending on an individual's relative value for actual time and 'active' time, it would be possible to consult the table and find the best source of honor.<br /><br />Here's my guess at the outcome: cooperate in AV comes out ahead for actual time, leeching in EotS or WSG wins for 'active' time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-73996448925384573252010-11-18T16:32:31.969+01:002010-11-18T16:32:31.969+01:00I assume the leech does not care about how much ho...I assume the leech does not care about how much honor is gained as long as honor is gained. If a leech started to trend 0 honor gains you may see a change. Otherwise even 1 honor for doing nothing is a gain. So if out of 10 players 9 were leeching and one was active a single kill by that player would satisfy a leech.<br /><br />My thoughts on it at least.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-63008090811799565622010-11-18T16:23:49.999+01:002010-11-18T16:23:49.999+01:00@Wilson & Gevlon:
Also, the goal behind Priso...@Wilson & Gevlon:<br /><br />Also, the goal behind Prisoner's Dilemma is to amass more points than your opponent. That's why tit-4-tat is an optimal strategy and "always defect" is not. If you always defect, you will always lose.<br /><br />In WoW PVP, the goal of an honor point leech is to simply gain honor for little effort invested. It does not matter to the leech that the opposition may very well gain MORE honor for less work. If you always defect, you will always gain at least 1pt, guaranteed, and it does not matter what the other guy/team/faction gained.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-78811567523426112042010-11-18T16:10:53.992+01:002010-11-18T16:10:53.992+01:00Now that Blizzard has put an end to your scheme fo...Now that Blizzard has put an end to your scheme for world - I mean, Wintergrasp - domination, are you going back to leeching?<br /><br />In fact, virtually nobody is in Wintergrasp to maximise their Honor per hour. They are there mostly for two or three reasons:<br /><br />1. To collect enough Honor to get PvP gear. Maximising Honor (to a particular cap) is their goal, not Honor/hour.<br />2. They enjoy the battle, and are maximising their happiness/hour by participating in it.<br />3. They are farming (herbs, nodes, fish) and just make use of the Battlemaster's teleport to get them there quickly.<br /><br />I suspect that you are not there for reasons 1 and 3, and therefore will continue to visit Wintergrasp for reason 2.Dàchénghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994982502333811797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-58238059501816837572010-11-18T16:07:47.263+01:002010-11-18T16:07:47.263+01:00@Martin: the huge change is made by 4.0.3, not 4.0...@Martin: the huge change is made by 4.0.3, not 4.0.1, analysis of it on Monday.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-17880438762475598962010-11-18T16:02:37.394+01:002010-11-18T16:02:37.394+01:00@Ulsaki
"I would say yes, it is. On my server...@Ulsaki<br />"I would say yes, it is. On my server, WG has gone overnight from being dominated by the Alliance 90% of the time to the Horde winning constantly."<br /><br />I have exactly the same experience. I don't have explanation for this. I assume that it is the same for Agamaggan.<br /><br />@Gevlon<br />Read the above, you might be doing mistake of seeing correlation in WGClean and patch 4.0.1Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-36973189966557756522010-11-18T15:09:34.926+01:002010-11-18T15:09:34.926+01:00It seems like the readers on this blog have gotten...It seems like the readers on this blog have gotten dumber recently, or at least the ones who support Gevlon have stopped commenting. Gevlon seems clearly right here... but I guess like everyone else I can't be bothered to type out the paragraphs needed to argue with the people commenting.<br /><br />If the goal is to argue with those people -- Gevlon is cooperating, so I defect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-37522597664258501052010-11-18T14:25:35.395+01:002010-11-18T14:25:35.395+01:00How long would it take a leech to gain all of the ...How long would it take a leech to gain all of the honor they would need? You would assume they have a goal as honor has a cap and at some point leeching would be pointless. Once the goal is reached gear or honor cap does the leech start to contribute or vanish from the BG?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-46746183750843622162010-11-18T14:23:21.224+01:002010-11-18T14:23:21.224+01:00@Wilson: there is some truth in your point, howeve...@Wilson: there is some truth in your point, however gear can be used elsewhere:<br />- moron boosting his gearscore <br />- moron believing that he needs gear to "pwn", and plans to start playing seriously after he is geared<br />- arena player who consider BG boring but needs honor for buying start arena gearGevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-84211884083445502102010-11-18T14:09:47.166+01:002010-11-18T14:09:47.166+01:00There's a flaw in using Prisoner's Dilemma...There's a flaw in using Prisoner's Dilemma as a model for BGs. In PD, points are inherently valuable in and of themselves. But in WoW, Honor Points are only valuable if you use them to purchase gear which improves your chances if you are actively trying to win. If you're leeching, then you might as well be naked - your accumulated points have no value. If you always leech, then you win nothing of value, and you would have been better off not playing at all.Wilsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-41876111754781274822010-11-18T13:33:04.214+01:002010-11-18T13:33:04.214+01:00@Camo
"I'm not sure if it's easier to...@Camo<br />"I'm not sure if it's easier to win if the other faction has more players and a higher chance to fill their slots with M&S."<br /><br />I would say yes, it is. On my server, WG has gone overnight from being dominated by the Alliance 90% of the time to the Horde winning constantly.<br /><br />The most recent WG I participated in was a complete failure. There were morons standing on and watching as the siege were attacked and destroyed, and there were idiot kids making catapult after catapult, and completely ignoring the guns.<br /><br />My theory is that a few competent Alliance players did most of the work. But now it's almost impossible for them to get in, and Alliance side is filled almost exclusively with retards, causing the Horde win ratio to approach almost 100%.Ulsakinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-76891658713222210922010-11-18T13:12:46.437+01:002010-11-18T13:12:46.437+01:00Again addition..:
I think the basic of PD is missi...Again addition..:<br />I think the basic of PD is missing some extra variables. Such as the number of player and the fact that you can decide anytime durige the game (BG). So you have in a BG infinite possibilities to decide.<br /><br />At the numbers:<br />you have 15 per BG.<br />4 decide to deflect 11 decide to cooperate:<br />deflecters earn marginally "10" (win without efford)<br />cooperators get marginally "3" (win with efford)<br /><br />now we have a opposite 11 deflect 4 cooperate<br />deflectors earn maginally "5" (loose without efford)<br />cooperators get "0" (loose with high efford)<br /><br />now just imagine that you get the time variable into this situation with different strategys that change the playstyle every second potentally. <br />So you can do the "Tit for tat"-tactic deciding every second. And yes this will affect each other. You get an interesting complex system with the following playertype and their strategy:<br /><br />M&S: Generelly the defecting one (may be a started grim trigger).<br />"Social": Generelly the cooperating one (mostly trying a Collusion but often failing).<br />"Selfish" or "Asocial": Tit for tat. If the others seem to deflect, they will also. No efford for minimum profit.<br />Dislogic: Random. They wage profit in different ways than the first three. It is also possible that their kind of efford is defecting. I´m adding this to get the bit of chaos. (I´d consider myself as such as long as I seem to take profit from personal experience)<br /><br />You could programm a simulation witch includes all this, maybe the outcome is interesting but I think such a program should already be excisting. But you can already forecast the most likely outcome of every situation.<br /><br />Oh and yes the opposite side in the BG also affects your side and the whole "progress". <br />Happy thinking.<br />(sorry took some time to focus on the given simulation)Ðesolatenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-74423661121922559962010-11-18T11:48:24.782+01:002010-11-18T11:48:24.782+01:00@Ardoric: WGClean added exactly that, memory to th...@Ardoric: WGClean added exactly that, memory to the system.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.com