6VDT-H: July 28, 20:30 EVE Time. When all records were broken.
4050 in local, 1400 from the alliance. At the start we had only TRIBE on our side with 400!!! pilots. No other EVE battle was this big. No other alliance ever fielded so many people. GSF, the alliance fielded only half, but with pets, 2600.
Karan, our staging system got 10% TiDi just from us getting to titans.
Landing on grid. The overview just show logis.
I have a pod overview, looking at it gives a good approximation of the battle. It was losing for TEST from the start.
CFC bridged in fleets before us, which proved to be critical towards the outcome. We stood down from forming slowcats and the drop of dreads was canceled too. After my client died 6 times, I abandoned my original plan to drop a dread no matter what and went in with a simple logi. Bridging in took ages, CCP was clearly not prepared for this magnitude.
Surprisingly reps held for a while, but everything was terribly slow. Then I realized that I'm probably just repping people from bomb damages and mistaken fires, primary targets died before lock (10 mins in real time). The TiDi and lag was extreme. How did the battle end for me? I got jammed (next to the 11 damps) and noticed that my aggression timer is off (probably calculates timers badly because the 20 seconds jam was just halfway). So I figured out a "genius" idea to dock to clear damps and jams and undock. Docking took 23 minutes and couldn't cancel it. Undock? Didn't happen. So unlike most TESTies, I failed to end in a wreck.
What can I tell about the outcome? CFC clearly won Fountain. But TEST didn't just do an "OK" last stand, but broke all records. I don't think "failcascade" will be mentioned. We will retreat to Delve and will either hold it alone, or leave it as the most battle-hardened, compentent and motivated group. A single alliance fielding 1400 people isn't going to fade away.
The most annoying thing: NC. and some of our forces couldn't bridge in because of system cap. CCP wasn't prepared that more than 4K pilots want in. If we'd bridge in first, we could have locked out several Goon fleets, engaging 1:1 at the station. Next time CCP will figure out some solution to handle battles in the age of coalitions.
Finally, the most important aspect of the battle: the losses of us and our allies are about 100B.
The value of the time of 1700 pilots for 4 hours with 50M/hour ratting income: 340B
I doubt anyone bothers about that "lost time". And if we don't bother for 340B, we shouldn't bother about 100. If everyone involved spends 1/4 time making ISK, it's already replaced. What I wrote when the donation board came up still stands: "TEST can no longer bankrupt. Moons can be taken, members not. As long as there are members log in, there will be ISK in the chest, therefore there will be SRP."
Update: seems we won the ISK battle.
Surprisingly reps held for a while, but everything was terribly slow. Then I realized that I'm probably just repping people from bomb damages and mistaken fires, primary targets died before lock (10 mins in real time). The TiDi and lag was extreme. How did the battle end for me? I got jammed (next to the 11 damps) and noticed that my aggression timer is off (probably calculates timers badly because the 20 seconds jam was just halfway). So I figured out a "genius" idea to dock to clear damps and jams and undock. Docking took 23 minutes and couldn't cancel it. Undock? Didn't happen. So unlike most TESTies, I failed to end in a wreck.
What can I tell about the outcome? CFC clearly won Fountain. But TEST didn't just do an "OK" last stand, but broke all records. I don't think "failcascade" will be mentioned. We will retreat to Delve and will either hold it alone, or leave it as the most battle-hardened, compentent and motivated group. A single alliance fielding 1400 people isn't going to fade away.
The most annoying thing: NC. and some of our forces couldn't bridge in because of system cap. CCP wasn't prepared that more than 4K pilots want in. If we'd bridge in first, we could have locked out several Goon fleets, engaging 1:1 at the station. Next time CCP will figure out some solution to handle battles in the age of coalitions.
Finally, the most important aspect of the battle: the losses of us and our allies are about 100B.
The value of the time of 1700 pilots for 4 hours with 50M/hour ratting income: 340B
I doubt anyone bothers about that "lost time". And if we don't bother for 340B, we shouldn't bother about 100. If everyone involved spends 1/4 time making ISK, it's already replaced. What I wrote when the donation board came up still stands: "TEST can no longer bankrupt. Moons can be taken, members not. As long as there are members log in, there will be ISK in the chest, therefore there will be SRP."
Update: seems we won the ISK battle.
24 comments:
So wrong on so many levels.
Firstly it was an enormous fail. Sure you fielded a lot of pilots, but you could bare field the fleet compositions required. And since this was a defensive, you should have been first in system ready for the battle.
Secondly, again you are calculating loss of time based on multiplications of member counts by isk/hour. That simply doesn't work. If it did, TEST wouldn't be broke. If it mapped across directly like that, you guys should be making 12000*50m isk/hour. If it were the case that member cash = alliance wealth, the donation board should be lit up with donations and bringing in enormous amounts of isk, but it's not. Once they'd got past this initial donations where they were scamming you, and now that you are no longer matching donations, the donation board has ground to a halt. 8b in the last week?
You need to work on your understanding of alliance mechanics from the actual way they work, not from the way you think they should work. Without that, most of what you write will continue to be an embarrassment to yourself.
Calling the Alliances in the CFC "Pets" shows how much you know.
You know nothing, Gevlon Goblin.
The CFC won this war, because their coalition has NO PETS. They are a uniform force, with shared mumble, shared jabber, shared forums and shared believes.
And TEST and Friends? Hell, TEST alone managed it to spread their members across TWO Jabbers. Not to mention the lack of communication structures with N3, NC. and PL.
So tell me, how can you look down upon GSF and their "pets" and not realize that you degrade yourself by doing it?
If they're bad, what does it tell about you, after they won?
Who said that a slave army can't be effective?
I did not insult Goons, I insulted their pets.
Also, TEST had only one ally on this war, TRIBE. The rest just shown up some times for fights but didn't give a damn about Fountain.
I think you further missed the point that Anonymous made. You talk about the CFC like Goons + Pets. What you fail to understand is that the "Pets" are close to goons than most TEST members are to each other. I'm SMA, so you would consider me a goons "Pet", yet I spend more time laughing and joking around with goons and more time in goon fleets on our shared comms than I do with my own alliance. The CFC isn't one ruling alliance with a bunch of slave alliances, it's a coalition of alliances with common beliefs working together for a common goal.
You realise the whole "Goon pet" stuff was made ups as a way to insult alliances like ours and it's not actually based on any facts right? You can believe all the TEST propaganda you like but it doesn't make it true.
Sad to see Fountain lost to CFC (according to your account which I have to trust here)
Chances are that the CFC is stretched thinner than ever now and a counter attack will meet success.
Three cheers for that!
I'm curious, why are CFC alliances Goon pets? As far as I know you've never been in CFC, so your reasoning for this must be second hand. And on that note, is Tribe a Test pet? If not, why not?
Also, is it rational to throw almost 2000 people into the meat grinder, with inferior ships, inferior numbers, inferior positioning and inferior organization? It was hopeless from the start, which was obvious to everyone.
Lastly, how is it that Test cannot go bankrupt? The donation board shows 8b ISK donations last week. And not only is this too low to affect alliance income much, it is also too volatile to be secure alliance income. Moons and renters give predictable income that lets you plan long term, something a donation board can never do.
if CFC had 2600 pilots, and were in system before and after you guys, then they wasted upwards of 720B in man hours plus the cost of their ships.
so the battle was worth over 1T in opportunity cost.
A battle so epic that it made the BBC News:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23489293
@"Update: seems we won the ISK battle."
But you lost the war.
Funny how ISK means nothing when you guys lose it but everything when we lose some. Short of it is, we still have more than you guys, and now we have your space too.
By the way, it's worth noting that the NC. killboard seems to be upscaling that kill by 35b compared to the regular killboards like eve-kill.
Gevlon, I'm unaffiliated in this war, and you're being affected by propaganda.
Now, I'm not sure whether you do this intentionally (to keep morale high by showing you "believe" in what leadership tells you) or unintentionally (which I would hope you would not fail to notice), but I strongly hope it's the former.
We lost the war on the day it started. We were under the assumption that we are members of a coalition, but we were left alone.
About Goon Pets: post will be up tomorrow.
@"About Goon Pets: post will be up tomorrow."
Are you going to actually investigate this at all or can we expect one you your usual posts full of guesswork and inaccuracies?
Other than "There's no such thing as Goon Pets" and "Coalitions are ways for larger alliances and groups of alliances to distribute risk and leadership strain", there's not much else to say.
The question of pets comes down to control. Does SMA have any? Sure you use their mumble and they help out with SRP, but who made the decision to invade Fountain?
If goons dont have pets, how come that despite having a lesser participation rate of half their coalition, and making up for less than a third of the CFC numbers, they get at least 50% of tech/R64/whatever they're taking before leaving the scraps for the dumb fucks who keep doing their wetwork?
Goons have pets, they're just good at convincing them that they're more than that, just like they were good at convincing the HBC that they didnt want a sov war, or a part of test that they were their friends.
"We fought today because we need to show the game that we play a bit differently than you're 'supposed' to." [booda's speech at tmc]
as u are with test now, could you write an article about what the difference in test's playstyle is?
I wonder how much does losing Fountain affect TEST's ability to field fleets.
Gevlon seems to be of the opinion that it doesn't affect it at all.
If so, then i'm not sure what has the point of the entire exercise been, aside from fun (which TEST sure had :D).
Awesome post Gevlon. As a fellow TEST Logi pilot, I sympathize with your predicament, having logged once to try to shake damps and getting out of blackscreen about 2 hours later.
I did make it back and was one of the 6 Logi left that made the final charge at the Goon Dreads, and left the field with my Guardian absorbing the damps of just about every Celestis they had to throw in fleet. I kept my reps on CourtJester until the bitter end.
Keep the haters hating.
TEST LOGIBROS BEST LOGIBROS :fistbump:
Anonymous Anonymous said...
If goons dont have pets, how come that despite having a lesser participation rate of half their coalition, and making up for less than a third of the CFC numbers, they get at least 50% of tech/R64/whatever they're taking before leaving the scraps for the dumb fucks who keep doing their wetwork?
Goons have pets, they're just good at convincing them that they're more than that, just like they were good at convincing the HBC that they didnt want a sov war, or a part of test that they were their friends.
well said.
You have to lol at all of the pet comments. At the end of the day, Goons could not secure the space they own without the other alliances in the CFC. The leader corp of the CFC is the goons, sure, so the top level decisions will generally get made there, but there will be coalition level discussion. End decisions given to me come from my chain of command, not Goons.
Any coalition in real life or EVE is the same. There will always be 1 more powerful member, and you could easily claim any other member is a pet, but when it comes down to it, the coalition needs the whole coalition to survive.
Combined Comms is just the best way to work, and GSFs comms have the most hardware so support the biggest load. That doesn't mean we don;t have our own alliance comms and systems, but GSF provides a global set of systems for the whole coalition.
At the end of the day, this type of propaganda will always exist. But that's all it is, propaganda. Every anti-goon will contest this, but its true.
Feel free to look here:
http://raynor.cl/eve/coalition.php
By the same way that other CFC alliances are declared pets, pick a coalition and you can do the same. Everyone that's not the biggest block is a pet. So for N3 Coalition, Why so serious, NC., Nexus, Kadeshi - All pets. Go ask them if that's the case though.
Our alliance decided to help Test in this war. Fundamentally, the argument boiled down to "because, fuck goons." Several in our corp showed up but were turned away at the rendezvous due to being in shield fitted ships and not in armor.
I had RL issues preventing me from going, but as someone who rented from Test before, the taste in my mouth from being a renter wasn't pleasant enough to go out of my way to throw ships/isk into this war. As our corp left the renter alliance (HBC), we each got mailed versions of the hitman scam. That sort of nonsense further soured the taste.
http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/hitman.asp
About all I got to do was watch a little bit of DBRB's stream. I want to be in his fleets. He's so much more entertaining than the typical FC. Even if he has to stop to argue with his dad about ravioli.
If goons dont have pets, how come that despite having a lesser participation rate of half their coalition, and making up for less than a third of the CFC numbers, they get at least 50% of tech/R64/whatever they're taking before leaving the scraps for the dumb fucks who keep doing their wetwork?
Because most of the social programs and administration run for the coalition are run out of GSF. These things cost money. GSF is administrating assets necessary for the welfare of the coalition on behalf of the rest of its members.
Who made the decision to invade fountain? Mittani did. Mittani is unquestionably the leader of the cfc. This does not mean, however, that the other alliances did not have a say in the decision process.
You could certainly make the case that goonswarm is the leading and most prominent member of the cfc, much in the same way that test was the leading member of the hbc, before it collapsed.
This does not make the other cfc alliances pets. That is not how we work. People who say this have never been in cfc and are attempting to make themselves feel better by taking some sort of bullshit 'freedom and fairness' high ground in an internet spaceship videogame. Get over yourselves.
I'm in TEST but wouldn't agree that everyone who flew with Goons were pets.
Pets to me implies subservience, or difficulty in surviving on your own, or perhaps even an existence totally reliant upon a larger entity.
For the most part that isn't CFC, though there are surely elements within that group who count. To try and deny this is laughable ignorance at worst, naive at best.
'Our' biggest mistake was not getting in nice and early. We fielded the appropriate fleets despite what Lucas said but couldn't get most of them in. I think that a decision was made relatively early on that the battle was lost and so the big hitters were stood down.
We'd still probably have lost the fight as CFC most likely had reinforcement fleets on stand by too, not forgetting many other caps that they probably didn't jump in so the point is mostly moot, but the limitations of TiDi and the server system numbers cap played a significant role in accelerating TEST's demise on the night.
As for the comment suggesting that the suicide charge at the end was pointless. Well, at the end of the day, so is this game if all we're going to do is keep the guard up instead of coming out swinging. Sometimes, particularly when you figure you're out anyway, you might as well try to give a bloody nose before you get knocked out.
It was fun, we got a nag, I actually survived and got out through B-170 only to be picked off on the way home.
Insurance paid, fun had. Thanks for the memories. xxx
Who made the decision to invade fountain? Mittani did. Mittani is unquestionably the leader of the cfc. This does not mean, however, that the other alliances did not have a say in the decision process.
Of course they have "a say". There's only so far you can push even a pet so they do have some say. But could the leader of any of the other alliances in CFC decided to take them all to war with the GSF only having "some say" in the decision? No.
Same is true of TEST / TRIBE which is why Gevlon has been pushing towards integration.
Well structured comms and integration of channels / fleets does not two alliances equals make.
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